TERA Online forum archive
Posts by counterpoint
9XNTHP5R3H wrote: »
Dude what about grid? victory box gives me 6 t11 fs everytime, vg doesn't even give gear exp.

We honestly think the fact this might even still be on at all is a mistake. Apparently by this patch in K-TERA, they had already turned it off. That's most likely why BHS never updated the rewards. Of course, if they decide to keep it in this region, they'll have to fix it.
Meshak wrote: »
I'm not sure I like the analogy of us being a pawn when we're the paying customers.
The analogy was about the scale of our voice/power. Even as a paying customer, the scale of our influence is limited because of the business structure at play (centrally managed by the development team to serve all global markets, of which we're only one, and not necessarily the most important one). That's what I've been trying to explain.

Meshak wrote: »
If you're suggesting the only thing we can do is have one person talk to eme when they get the chance and hope for change I would hope there are more options for interaction.
No, that wasn't what I was suggesting. I was just trying to explain the issues I try to focus on, my reasons for choosing those particular types of issues, and why I take this approach. But everyone gives feedback in their own way.

Meshak wrote: »
How about a follow up to the message they forwarded. Whether its good news or bad news.
I don't even know if EME gets that kind of specific follow-up until changes are further down the development timeline. But even if they did... I'm not sure it'll really go better if they start giving people the "bad news." I mean, I think it'd still be the right thing to do... but I also worry that it'd make people even more upset for being ignored/denied.


Basically, people in our market are not used to being treated as a "secondary market." All the major tech companies and many of the major gaming companies are here, and they all spend a lot of their focus on making products people here like. They also tend to be more directly interactive with people here to get their feedback and openly iterative. BHS's development culture really isn't like that, from what we've seen over the years.

Anyway, I really wish that we could get a representative of the BHS development team to take and directly respond to questions from our market. I've made that suggestion before too.
Partyblast wrote: »
even though literally everything is a copy+paste, including the "draw me like a french girl" death animation

I assume they at least made alterations to the gunner-exclusive armor looks where needed... otherwise, well, may not get quite the take-up they were thinking... lol
ElinLove wrote: »
That's one thing we may see if Male Brawler is popular enough, in an income standpoint that is. People may hail it and all but if it doesn't sell enough stuff, no good.
That's basically what I would say too -- for the love of god everyone who keeps clamoring for them to bring these classes to males, create male Brawlers and show there's real interest/traction. If it doesn't happen and people are all like "well, people already have their brawlers and they don't really care enough to make a new one that's male" then the "dream" is over. If the amount of Elin gunners created and played wildly exceeds the amount of male brawlers, well...

ElinUsagi wrote: »
Nexon got the rights to publish K-Tera shortly after China failed and their way to do things have kept alive the game there. Maybe that's one of the reasons BHS has narrowed their vision of how NA should be managed.

Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean nothing can be done. Or rather... if people really think nothing can be done, then there's no point in discussing anything in the first place. That's what I mean by achievable goals. I think there are still things that can be done to help make the game better, even if you can't fix everything or drastically change the whole game's course all at once.
Meshak wrote: »
so what do we do about it? Obviously posting doesn't work. What sort of petition should we do, who should we address it to?
I would suggest first to have a realistic goal. We're not in control of the chessboard; we're just a single pawn at the start line. For now all we can do is move forward.

What I mean is: you're not going to topple BHS leadership or cause them to somehow wake from some stupor and be like "oh [filtered], we should really listen to what NA players want and give in." Giving them a huge list of major changes to the game's strategic direction is not an easy sell. They also had their reasons for changing things over the years, so if you propose "go back to how things were," it's a significant uphill battle. Besides, we're just one market of many, and BHS does not need us to survive; they can just close TERA NA and be like "we had a good run," and keep focusing on PUBG, A:IR, Console TERA, and TERA PC in the regions where what they want to do still works. EME is diversifying into other projects and can probably keep finding work, too.

Does all that mean we need to give up? No, of course not. I don't think either EME or BHS actually want TERA to die in NA either, as that helps no one. But I wouldn't spend time now focusing on how I'm going to checkmate the king.

I already said here what I choose to focus on. They're issues I can clearly articulate, are within EME's scope to address, and have a clear benefit to the players. Things I can explain in an elevator pitch. I hope that, in bringing constructive, achievable suggestions that they can "buy into," and seeing positive results, it'll lead to more trust and the next win. It's a frustrating, slow process that tries my patience... but it's the only way I see of keeping this pawn in the game.

Of course, you don't have to believe me. Maybe I'm misguided or wrong. I personally don't see how any amount of petitions or angry complaints to anyone are going to accomplish much, particularly if what you want is vague, nebulous, not clearly actionable, and likely at odds with their experiences, metrics, and global priorities. But I do know that even pawns can become queens, so nothing is impossible.
HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
How should i play this game to have fun?

Honestly? I would: stop playing for a while. Try other games (including non-MMOs). After a while, see if you miss TERA. Come back and just do whatever find fun without caring about things you don't find fun. If you don't come back, then you didn't find it fun and hopefully you find more happiness doing other things. Life's too short to be miserable.

For me personally, there are some things about TERA that I still find fun despite all the problems, and it will keep drawing me back.
HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
on MT at least, the miner hats are 5k gold on broker.. if you really want one, 5k gold takes less than an hour to earn. the dyads and superior nocs seem to be dropping at least resonable amounts. it's not really an interesting event but at least it's something different than running 32 RG's every day

Can you explain what reasonable amounts really means? I have done quite some runs so far and all that i have seen was a single miner hat.

How many runs do we usually have to do to get a smart dyad?

I've done about 20 runs and gotten 6 dyads and 4 superior nocs, plus one miner hat drop. Seems fine to me for a dungeon that takes 10 minutes.

The other point to mention about this event is that it's running for almost a week (until Thursday), which is longer than usual. I'm sure this also factored into the drop rate this time. (Maybe it's better for this reason to have events that don't run as long, but where they feel more rewarding while you run them.)
Meshak wrote: »
If they did events/rewards and mat distribution better, it would have a positive impact.

You have to remember that they made a conscious and deliberate decision with this gear cycle that they would try to interfere with mat distribution as little as possible. This was in direct response to the previous gear cycles where they ran events that influenced gear progression way too much (at least in their view, and as also expressed by some people on the forum). So right now they are being very conservative with mats for that reason.

I think they will start to loosen up over time (like they added diamonds to PvP jackpots this month), but they are being very cautious and purposefully letting BHS's system play out. So this isn't a question of "are you able to do something" it's "are you willing to do something". They're basically trying on purpose to make it so that any feedback people have about gear and mats is 100% BHS's fault this round.
ElinLove wrote: »
Well, this is then a nice big set of people being stubborn to invest properly into the game.
The whole deal about how different the populations of each game localizations are, and how they obviously refuse to just accept this fact and that you should make changes to work worldwide, restricting themselves contractually to just BHS ruling and all obey, sounds to me like some very stupid financial decision.
Players themselves can see much more than the developers (???) and how the health of the community is not alright, they should be seeing the numbers financially. It just can't be that they're seeing it work, this makes me wonder heavily if they're just keeping the stubborn mindset betting it will work out later and cost cutting is a good idea or if they really cannot afford it anymore and are on a worse situation than expected.

I can totally understand how the game goes through a big chain of command and that BHS just sits at the ultimate top, but then, it just looks like they're being very stupid and stubborn to me.

Well, FWIW, they made a strategic investment that you probably don't agree with. They decided to invest in the Western market through an expansion into consoles. You might say "what a waste! they could have just invested all that money into customizing and improving the PC game for us!" but my guess is that the board wouldn't see it that way. Investing in console is a way of building their in-house capacity both at BHS (programming/optimizing for consoles) and also at EME (Sony/MS certification, console game support, etc.). It's also possible that any improvements or optimizations they make for console could make their way back to the PC build. And, if console actually does work and find an audience, then that's a broader playerbase driving improvements to the baseline TERA for all regions and platforms. (If console is successful, that'll be even more voices at the table in favor of changes that match our market preferences.)

So basically, they took a more shrewd approach to the problem. Keep in mind that when the game first launched, they did customize it more extensively for various markets, and they went through a conscious process to try to unify them as much as possible in the last few years (as part of the process of speeding up the release cadence). So they've been down that road already; an "if you build it, they will come" spiel probably won't work on them. But it's not like they're outright not investing. They basically said "we're willing to invest, but into something that will help us grow as a company over the long term." My guess is that it's probably because, for their next MMO game, they are going to want it on consoles as well, and it's part of their long-term corporate diversification strategy. (It also means that, going forward, EME will be able to sell their services to other companies as a console publisher.)

I realize my saying all this doesn't solve our problem as TERA PC players dealing with there and now. But I strongly suspect this is why they're doing what they're doing.
HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
I think that a game does not have to be necessarily bad because it is old since i have seen plenty of old but very popular games.

Of course, there are optimization issues and other technical problems but the state of the game that we had for the past 12 months has no connection whatsoever unless you believe that for example the current TRNM event is somewhat lacking due to technical problems ( sometimes i just hope that RNG was never going to be applied to MMO games since its the devils tool that can control any drop chance and with it create false promises ).
I wasn't trying to say that optimization and technical problems were the only problems that exist, but I was just focusing on what will attract new players to the game. The sorts of issues you're talking about aren't going to be apparent to people when they start; they're really the laments of the core players who are burnt out by the formula. And even then, the vast majority of the playerbase will never try to get +9 SC gear or anything like that in the first place. The vast majority of players are casual or semi-casual (just like with every MMO these days).

HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
And the future? If the past and the present were so grim then what to expect about the future? Many of us thought that the new year will be different but its the same all over again.
Although I totally agree that the issues like the ones you're talking about need to be addressed and improved (see my suggestion list in the other constructive feedback thread for what my priorities would be)... the game is continuing to go on. I don't honestly believe that it's at any risk of closing any time soon, despite all the anger/frustration/disappointment on the forum (which has been a constant theme on this forum ever since the game launched). The game is slowly evolving and is continuing to be developed, and it still does its set of core things well. It has its niche. Unless some other game comes around and pushes all the same buttons and does it better, I think the game has legs within its niche.

Of course, I think we still need to push hard for improvements, but if we were truly resigned to the fact that there was no hope, there'd be no point in suggesting anything.
vkobe wrote: »
papy10k wrote: »
Remember they were in the open world, man that was (for me) best event EVER.
x1Nb5Hl.png

it was before spacecat is our current cm B)

You're right (although the Kyra's event with Blue Boxes happened in February 2016), but the decision to not have them again had nothing to do with Spacecats at all. It was because EME discovered after that event that people found ways to accumulate way more than they ever imagined and were hoarding them (hoping for better prizes the next time). It was why the next one had worse rewards and also wiped all catalysts out.

At the very least, I think TERA PC will continue. I don't think they see console as an escape route or something away from the core game, but just as one other platform to sell the game on (just like expanding into a new market).

That said, I don't expect the game to have some giant revolutionary change or turnaround. It's still inevitably an older game by now with known optimization issues and is probably going to remain in the niche it finds itself in. Hopefully, once console is out, that will help spur them towards bigger development projects to help at least retain that niche audience, and maybe bring some people back. But we'll see.
Meshak wrote: »
What if there was an independent list for each player, not shown to the party, at the end of each dungeon that showed your dps and an average dps of others of your class and your gear score? It could have a list of your most used skills and how much damage they did.

Yes, this sort of "personal performance indicator" (with some sort of barometer to measure against) is the best compromise I've heard proposed in multiple MMOs trying to find the right balance for this topic. Most people do generally want to know how they're doing, but they'd feel more comfortable having a system tell them that privately (and give them an average to compare against) than to be shamed by other members of the party. With this sort of system, you could also calibrate it to the encounter over time by leveraging "big data," so that it would take into consideration mechanics that might impact your "score."

Now the only thing is to convince TPTB to program this sort of feature. I believe BHS did actually allude at one point that they were considering adding something, though. We'll see.
Meshak wrote: »
How about if En Masse told us what they have direct control over and we then gave input specific to said list? Sort of work with what we can rather than complain about what we can do nothing about?

I can tell you what I know, at least (though this is just my personal opinion based on what I've observed over the years and the tidbits they've said on the forum and to player council).

(Begin long post...)

Basically, all the decisions about the game itself, its balance, and patch contents belong to BHS and are their responsibility. EME's responsibility is to, within certain parameters, develop events that encourage people to play the game. They can also develop and control, within certain parameters, certain reward systems and structures, along with the way they price and sell things on the cash shop.

I emphasize "within certain parameters" because basically BHS is aware of everything they're doing, and has veto power if they really don't like something. So they couldn't, for example, just decide to arbitrarily take everything out of lootboxes and put them on for direct sale unless BHS signed off on it, because it affects both of their revenue streams. Likewise, for example, they were forbidden from releasing a system they developed that would have provided everyone a fair way to earn all the dragon mounts in-game, as BHS exercised their veto power and blocked it (causing a huge mess at the time).

Technically speaking, by editing server files they could make more fundamental changes to things like drop tables and enemy parameters (and likely skill balance, I'm guessing). However, any time they did something like this, it would get overwritten by BHS when the next patch comes out, and patches (basically) come out monthly now. So unless they want to be constantly redoing their changes and "fighting BHS" every month, it's in their best interest to have these sorts of changes made by BHS and "flow down" to them from the upstream patch. In addition, it's BHS's responsibility to control and manage the flow of progression in the game, and they're the only ones with the full picture of what they have in mind for future patches.

(It's important to note that most of the major/experimental changes Gameforge did recently were on their test server, which they already know is going to permanently disappear before the next patch. So this allows them to play with all sorts of things that they "technically can" do, but it would be counterproductive to do on the regular servers.)

The point about "fighting BHS" is also important because EME is a sister company to BHS (same owners/investors). They won't and can't do anything overt like "we don't believe in your vision for the game, BHS, and we're going to do our own thing." They must always play the political game with BHS and "encourage" them to make changes (providing evidence/backup for their case), while doing what they are allowed to do within the box they can play in. In short, if BHS is the head office, EME is the local sales/distribution office. They mostly get decisions handed down from corporate, but can do some things in the local market that they believe will be more effective -- so long as it doesn't conflict with what corporate wants.

Further, because BHS and EME are sister companies, their shared owners/investors aren't going to be willing to hire a whole bunch of people just to do the same things BHS is already paying people to do for the game globally. For example, BHS has people responsible for doing class balance, and that's their job. They're not going to let EME pay someone to do custom class balance for our region, and so pay two different people to do the same job. So there's a difference between localization/local market customization and breaking away from the core game itself. The latter I expect EME will never do. (Some of the things people don't like about the direction the game has gone fall into that category, and would be basically impossible for EME to change unless there's a substantial change in vision and leadership at BHS.)

Of course they deliver feedback to BHS about players' opinions on lots of things, because BHS' TERA revenue is also directly impacted if players in any region are unhappy and stop playing. I also know EME staff have their personal own opinions of what they'd ideally want to do about the game if it were up to them. But again, because of the politics, it's exceedingly rare to see them ever say anything that outright goes against what BHS wants, since that isn't their place. I can probably count on my hands the amount of times they've done that over the years, and even then it's guarded (but that's also what makes it stand out).


So with all this said... the things I try to focus on when I can discuss with any EME staff:

1) Issues that specifically relate to our localization of the game and work they've done "in-house", like reward merchants, events, and the cash shop
2) Outright bugs, exploits, and things so wrong that they will have a strong case to either act directly or argue for urgent action by BHS (whether BHS chooses to act or not)
3) The general root or root cause of overall dissatisfaction in the hopes that the concern is taken forward and has an impact on future long-term direction.

I try to keep in mind that everything has to go many layers up the authority chain. Spacecats has to report game feedback to Seandynamite, who may have to report to Denommenator (and in some cases may have to go all the way to Kimmander), and things for BHS have to first go from there to our region's BHS rep, who may then have to go up from there to their boss, and the idea may end up in committee and ultimately to the TERA producer who would assign to the developers responsible. Never mind the fact that there are least 5 other markets that also get their own chance to similarly try to elevate feedback. So when you're so many layers removed from the actual people doing the work, it's like a game of telephone tag. The message better be damn clear or it'll never make it through in one piece. Any one person in the whole chain who doesn't understand the problem or doesn't agree or doesn't believe in the proposed remedy (or has someone else telling them the opposite), and the whole thing dies on the vine.

Anyway, that's gotten really long and maybe rambling, but hopefully that helps someone get a better picture of (how I see) this structure, and what I think you're against in terms of giving feedback.


One last thing...
Meshak wrote: »
For what I know they control, I really think getting rid of double vanguards for specific events is a bad move. It takes a constant stream of mats away and turns it into come and get it if you're logged on when we do it. This seems to me a way to lose active players. Why would I log on now when I know an event is coming?

My thought on this is that, if they're going to switch to this model, they need to totally change the way they do events, and not make it an occasional weekend thing how it is now. Instead, it should be like the battleground jackpot calendar where every day there's some event going on. Like, today is Double Item XP day, tomorrow is Double Vanguard day, the next day is Double Leveling XP Day, Bonus Drops, 25% more gold in Vanguard, or whatever. That way there's a large variety of different events and something is happening all the time.

I agree with you that they can't just take that away and then be like the way it is now where once every few weekends there's an event.
toufu wrote: »
I wonder if they have an event that can actually do this yet. I know they've mentioned it was something they were looking into, anyway. Hopefully BHS can add it if it doesn't exist, because it would be a good event to have on a regular schedule.

https://en.tera.gameforge.com/news/page/patch-63
Special buff weekends with increased item XP, additional dungeon loot and more

Good - at least that suggests it exists as an event in some form.
I wonder if they have an event that can actually do this yet. I know they've mentioned it was something they were looking into, anyway. Hopefully BHS can add it if it doesn't exist, because it would be a good event to have on a regular schedule.
CornishRex wrote: »
I really like the box event because all levels can participate in it and it's really fun and relaxing to do while waiting for queue/inbetween daily boring grind. Saying we can't have it anymore because of exploits is silly because literally everything in this game can be exploited, should we remove dungeons too? Because of memeslash? Just ridiculous.

It's not exactly a fair comparison, because you're talking about core systems vs. optional reward events.

But anyway... there is a way they could do it if they can put some programming into it. Basically, they could make an event like Kyra's where you have in-game tokens that communicate with the store to redeem (the way catalysts currently do). And the store could impose a per-server/per-account daily limit on how many you can redeem, plus all rewards would be untradeable. The limit could be high enough so that it could give many hours of box searching, but enough so that any sort of potential exploit would be basically pointless (all you'd potentially save is a bit of time). Something like this is probably the best way so that we can bring an event like this back and make it fair for everyone.
JXE5356AKE wrote: »
CornishRex wrote: »
Cue in someone telling you we won't have those events anymore because of exploits that have been fixed.
waiting

One thing is fixed, but a lot of other issues are not. It's still broken.

(Not to mention, if anyone actually remembers this event, it was exceedingly broken back then, too. This is why, from that point on, all catalyst events reset and don't carry over and they never had any meaningful rewards in open world hunt boxes again. It's not that I don't like the event, but it's got issues.)

I still have Kyra's catalysts in item claim. Guess they didn't fully remove them.

You're right - they removed them from inventory and the balance in Kyra's, but not item claim.
clfarron4 wrote: »
Isn't Gameforge getting RMHM in the next couple of weeks?

Have they confirmed that it is included in their January patch? If so, then we should get the same here. We know there'll be a patch in January and March (and March includes Male Brawler), so it's just a question of which of the two have RMHM. It would make more sense for it to be this one.
CornishRex wrote: »
Cue in someone telling you we won't have those events anymore because of exploits that have been fixed.
waiting

One thing is fixed, but a lot of other issues are not. It's still broken.
Xerses wrote: »
Digivolve wrote: »
Digivolve wrote: »
Spacecats wrote: »
Shoutout to everyone that afk'd with me on TR ;D

These are currently being planned for a release in the next couple weeks, so stay tuned.

You said January 18th on stream though....

He said that was the goal to get it into the store for everybody by then. It might still be the plan, but it's a goal.

"Goal" is a really cute name for dates we probably can't and won't keep, but just throwing it out there anyway

Having plans/goals like this is the reality for all software companies, including gaming. Things slip dates all the time because unexpected complications come up; sometimes it's visible, sometimes it isn't. It's the nature of the job. If people expect them to be transparent to any degree, they'll have to deal with this uncertainty.

how much do they pay you?

Nothing. If you think this is me "defending them," you don't get what I'm saying at all. We should want them to share plans even if they're subject to change, rather than getting mad every time anything changes and then having them shut up (as has happened before).
Digivolve wrote: »
Digivolve wrote: »
Spacecats wrote: »
Shoutout to everyone that afk'd with me on TR ;D

These are currently being planned for a release in the next couple weeks, so stay tuned.

You said January 18th on stream though....

He said that was the goal to get it into the store for everybody by then. It might still be the plan, but it's a goal.

"Goal" is a really cute name for dates we probably can't and won't keep, but just throwing it out there anyway

Having plans/goals like this is the reality for all software companies, including gaming. Things slip dates all the time because unexpected complications come up; sometimes it's visible, sometimes it isn't. It's the nature of the job. If people expect them to be transparent to any degree, they'll have to deal with this uncertainty.
Basically, there is only one thing you can do:

Try to give them constructive, specific suggestions about the encounter or things they can try that don't come across as accusatory, personal, or attacking. Remember some people are new, and some people are also having bad days. If they are responsive to the suggestions, great. If not, then move on with your life; complete the run if you can, or accept the drop-out. No matter what MMO I've played, you'll always have some wonky/questionable PUGs with "bad players."

(And don't low-key or high-key admit to specifically tracking the damage players are doing, particularly not in PUG content. Just talk in generalities about mechanics and principles.)
Digivolve wrote: »
Spacecats wrote: »
Shoutout to everyone that afk'd with me on TR ;D

These are currently being planned for a release in the next couple weeks, so stay tuned.

You said January 18th on stream though....

He said that was the goal to get it into the store for everybody by then. It might still be the plan, but it's a goal not a promise.
voidy wrote: »
voidy wrote: »
I always thought it strange how we receive korea's cash shop stuff almost the moment it's out of development, but we have to wait 6 months for new dungeons and class balance stuff.

It's not really strange from a technical point of view, at least. All the cash shop item files are isolated and easy to merge into other builds (and a lot of cosmetics are tied to seasons/holidays so generally timeliness is important), plus very easy to localize independently. All the rest of the build changes are interrelated/interdependent so you can't piecemeal them, so they obey each region's patch cadence.

I guess that makes sense. What gets me more is the recycled content that re-enters the game. Back when the teleport exploit was a thing, players were able to warp into "removed" dungeons, exposing the fact that removed content is never really removed at all. When most content patches contain just recycled dungeons, it makes me wonder why it takes so long to implement that we'd have a half year delay (or at this point, a 4 month delay) from the korean game, especially when we go many months with just nothing being added at all.

Well, yeah, it's off-topic, but there's a reason for that too: preserving the patch cadence. Some of the stuff they do requires more extensive localization/marketing/technical integration, and so they can't move faster than the most difficult thing. Further, they've now basically unified the timeline for all non-KR regions, so the most difficult region also helps determine the overall time needed. Each content cycle is designed to last a certain amount of time, with major and minor updates within that cycle at regular intervals. So basically, the work required for their most difficult/major updates determines the gap, and the minor updates follow the cadence. Even if they could "speed up" some of the minor updates, it would just create a big gap while waiting for the next major one, so it's better to follow the cadence.
voidy wrote: »
I always thought it strange how we receive korea's cash shop stuff almost the moment it's out of development, but we have to wait 6 months for new dungeons and class balance stuff.

It's not really strange from a technical point of view, at least. All the cash shop item files are isolated and easy to merge into other builds (and a lot of cosmetics are tied to seasons/holidays so generally timeliness is important), plus very easy to localize independently. All the rest of the build changes are interrelated/interdependent so you can't piecemeal them, so they obey each region's patch cadence.
JasonTERA wrote: »
What EME can do for this is that they just listen and then ignore or forward them to BHS. However, EME has barely told us which suggestions and feedback they have forwarded to BHS, and this has made people feeling "lack of communication" or "getting ignored" on forum.

One thing we might be able to realistically ask to EME is to collect and categorize our suggestions & feedback from forum / discord and then show us the list of the things that they will(and will not) forward to BHS. With this periodical announcement, people would feel "more communication with GMs" since at least they can figure out which of our ideas have been forwarded to BHS via EME.

My understanding from the conversations we've had with them is that they forward an awful lot of stuff to BHS -- nearly everything that's constructive and relevant. They also have conversations with them multiple times a week. But I'm not sure this knowledge will serve as much comfort because BHS is a black hole. So even if EME were to prepare a list of all the feedback they received and say "we sent this to BHS," when nothing actually happens people still won't have confidence that the communication process is working. And doing this also has the appearance of throwing their own sister company under the bus while trying to absolve themselves of responsibility somehow. I'm not saying it's an entirely horrible idea, but it can also backfire.

The BHS developers simply don't have the sort of open, iterative development culture that people are more used to with (at least many) Western developers. Things just enter the black hole, go into some closed inner circle discussions, months of development happens, and then something comes out the other side. If you take the long view you can see how feedback does, in its own way, influence things, but it's a very long, convoluted, and opaque process.
FRSTY wrote: »
Tbh we deserve to be ignored and our feedback forgotten about, 3.7k people have seen the thread and only few of us up-vote and give our opinion. Sad sad sad.

one of the reasons why people don't give their opinion, is because we have been giving it for years now and they just get ignored. ive given mine many times and also in this thread , even counterpoint has given theirs multiple times and they are on player council. sometimes we get the " we will look into it" or " thanks for the comments" , but that's pretty much as far as it goes. so yeah, people feel like its a waste of their time and efforts now giving their opinions.

This is why I mostly concentrate on local issues like merchant updates, which we are finally -- slowly, but finally -- seeing some progress on. Also lootbox changes are probably going to happen eventually regardless just due the overall industry (note that PUBG posted lootbox rates the other day, and that's BHS). I know other PC members also focus on other more-local issues too, like event rewards, BG jackpots, and stuff like that because at least you're speaking more "directly" to those responsible (even if it might still get approved by BHS). It's also worth looking at things other publishers do on their own to see what is at least potentially possible to accomplish.

But big changes that would fundamentally change the balance/nature of the game? They need to be aware of what people want, but I don't think that's the bigger issue. (The points I listed about the base game, they already know.) The bigger issue is that they're just one vote around the publisher table, and other regions have their own needs and priorities too.
Elinu1 wrote: »
There really needs to be an autolock after 30 days of no posts like the old forums had. Too many necros

Yeah, this is the one thing the old forum had that we need to bring back.
Was there... really any reason to bump this thread from June just to insult the guy?
Just FWIW...
Jerichow wrote: »
Frankly I'm alright with the current existing gearing system - excluding of course the GearXP only allowing you a certain percent success chance despite reaching the '100%' XP limit for each level. If 100% GearXP = 100% Enchant/Upgrade chance, I wouldn't find a fault in the existing system.

That's basically what I meant by a fail-safe. The system is close to providing it already, but dials it back for the higher-tier gear so it's back to RNG again. So they have it within their means to address this, but they chose to keep this variability. (I do sort of understand why they did it for markets like Korea where netcafés are still a thing, but it isn't well-received in Western markets that don't have the same dynamics.)


And yeah, I knew what you were intended by the small asks... but the problem with that is that it can backfire on you. Someone looking at your requests can just go "why are they harping on these trivial things?" and dismiss the whole thing as just subjective preference and tune it out. It's sort of burying the lede. If we had direct access to the developers, that'd be one thing, but people lower in the chain of command typically only have a certain amount of "currency" to make requests before they tuned out entirely. So if they're going to forward requests up the chain, I'd rather they focus on things that can make the biggest difference. Of course, QoL has its place too, and I'm not against that... but not sure we need campfires while the building is already burning. But anyway, that's just my approach. I just don't want the important issues to be missed.
Koikoi wrote: »
I feel your pain. You cannot make full end game gear or profit from bgs and it hurts the PvP community.

But these threads are like beating a dying horse. It's going nowhere.

Incidentally, the same threads also happen in other regions where PvP is viewed the same way, like the EU, so multiple publishers are very aware of this due to repeated requests (plus their own knowledge of the past). But the overall PvP reward system was designed by BHS for their vision of PvP's role in TERA... which clearly isn't the same as what players in these regions want.

I wouldn't say it's entirely pointless to keep beating the dead horse in the sense that it keeps the pressure on about what the players here want, which can be sent to TPTB, but yeah. It's not because the thought never occurred to them or they're ignorant of the request.
natia wrote: »
March lmao. If we're not getting it Jan what about Feb? Since those patches are just a month apart in ktera.

Yeah, they said on the stream that two patches were being combined for the Human Brawler patch in March (and they'd be skipping February as a result).
It's scheduled for March per the roadmap.
InFRaReD28 wrote: »
Are we atleast getting the class balance changes this month?

For sure it's either the first or both of the above, so yes. (At least this round of class balance changes, anyway.)
HAAYAAKD43 wrote: »
VG rewards and reputation are now doubled through 01/31 at 11:59 p.m. PST.

where's the calendar for triple vg reward times ? you guys mentioned it sometimes being triple ..knowing in advance helps

It's for future months after January (when it'll no longer be double all the time).
FRSTY wrote: »
@counterpoint
I know you have some things you would love to see change/implemented into the game, and once again it's not your job to do so, but I feel like it would help, not only by keeping the thread alive, but also even more feedback, so please I encourage you to share those ideas. I would personally love to read what you have in mind in the hope of pushing TERA forward.

There are other things I'd personally want for my own enjoyment, but in terms of pushing TERA forward in our region:

1. Make PvP a "first class citizen" alongside PvE in gear progression, and fully support/encourage the PvP community with PvP-specific balance changes, initiatives, and tournaments.
2. Re-introduce competitive PvE aspects both native to the game and through events to encourage the community through content droughts. (Also, closely monitor for K-TERA content droughts and introduce timely new content to fill the gap.)
3. Add a true "level sync" system, allowing level 65 players to party with low-level players to complete dungeons/content, increasing the potential for cooperative PvE play with new players.
4. Eliminate talents in K-TERA and implement the same buffs via a different system (or as part of an existing system) that is accessible to all regions (so there is no perception of "preferential treatment" in class balance).
5. Have a constant stream of small events running in the game all the time (such as various boosts, spawn events, featured content, etc.), rather than relying so much on "big deal" events that might be flops. (Though keep doing occasional "big deal" events also.)
6. Further improve the gearing system to reduce the impact of RNG, allowing a definitive "fail-safe" that is reasonable for each gear tier.
7. Finally finish the revamp of all in-game merchants (fashion coupons, vanguard, buddy up, reward emporium, etc.) and regularly introduce new items going forward to keep things interesting. (i.e. Don't allow things to fall this far behind again.)
8. Closer monitoring of broker prices when determining event rewards, and closer attention to balance of prize awarding, to maintain a better sense of "worth" of event prizes for dedicated players.
9. Change TERA Rewards so that all in-game actions that reward points also give corresponding credits, and make it so that Elite players earn rewards/credits at a higher rate (double?).
10. Since eliminating cash shop lootboxes is unlikely, require all lootboxes to have posted odds and an absolute failure cap.
11. Regular and on-going meetings with Player Council to create a constant feedback loop, with tracking of delivered improvements and measurable results.
12. Find/hire regular forum moderators who can monitor the forum on weekends/evenings/holidays for any forum or in-game issues, and trigger appropriate staff action as needed.

Of course, these are just my opinions, and I'm sure that some of them people won't agree with. (It's also off the top of my head, so I'm sure I missed some.) And I'm also not trying to make this a competition of who has the better opinions on how to improve TERA either. Everyone has their own things that are important to them and will help their own enjoyment of the game, and they're not wrong whether I personally agree or not.
For the recent posts, I agree with some of the 30-90 day ideas (though whether they're actually 30-90 days, I don't know), but I feel that a lot of the 0-30 day ideas are... well, really subjective. For example, while I respect that some people really had an emotional attachment to campfires, and as an optional cosmetic it doesn't hurt anyone... I'm still not sure I'd put that first on any list. And likewise, I understand that some people liked having the huge variety of potion/bandage choices, but the streamlined system does have its merits too (which, although people won't care, make a bit more sense when you play the console build). It's like I said before with the original Island of Dawn example -- there are good aspects to it (particularly in its original state), but the way it was before it was removed was also pretty bad.

Basically, I feel like some of the ideas are more about bringing back the past (nostalgia?) than looking critically at the features' merits (and demerits) to find better ways to address the underlying needs and problems. If you asked me literally if I wanted all these exact changes and thought that would make the game better... it's about 50/50 for me, honestly. Of course it would be -- part of this is about personal preferences. But as a starting point for a potential conversation about things some people liked about the past and would like to see reconsidered, it makes sense.

Anyway, just as one point of order...
Jerichow wrote: »
Update and improve the daily login rewards. I’m not going to lie, I’ve been playing a ton of Warframe lately and something I noticed was that for EVERY PLAYER, not just Prime Access players, but for literally every single person that logs into the game each day - they get a daily item.

Our calendar serves this purpose. Elite members get a second daily item through the gift box. Maybe both of these could be improved more, but as it stands everyone does get a daily item.
drkmosc wrote: »
Maybe calling something "General" and then wondering why its use is so general wasen't the brightest idea to begin with. :smile:

Amazingly, it's something we inherited from the original TERA forum over 6 years ago, and the bias/preference to basically dump everything in general has been there the whole time. On the old forums, the search was so amazingly poor that this segmentation was pretty much the only way to find anything. The new forums are at least better as far as search goes, but it's not great as a knowledge base/repository of specific info (like lore, class guides, etc.). The move to consolidate the forums further biases it towards more transient topics rather than for more permanent knowledge/info.
InFRaReD28 wrote: »
What is there to even look forward to this month. And please don't remind me of yet another costume.

If it's only the late-September patch, it's this:
https://essentialmana.com/news/ktera-928-patch-note/

Guardian Missions, class balance changes, dungeon reward changes, and misc fixes.
Zoknahal wrote: »
Overall i think they are a nice addition to the players to just have some fun outside of the normal daily grind. And ill use Fashion coupons for an example: People keep using more the costumes from the shop rather than the ones available in the Fashion Coupon shop, so using the logic in your initial post, what benefit to the game would bring updating the fashion coupon shop if people will keep using the stuff from the cash shop regardless? The same applies to the signs.

FWIW, not all "nice to have" items are created equally. As I was alluding to, the issue you're fighting against is convincing them that the benefits outweigh the potential support burden. That doesn't apply to the Fashion Coupon shop at all. Updating fashion coupons to give people more options is only going to make people happy, and simply requires some one-time work to get done, with no negative on-going support impact. I don't think you can say "well, if you're not going to give us signs, why bother giving us anything nice/optional at all, then?" The signs have their own unique challenge that would need to be overcome, and that's the hill you have to climb. And while I think your examples are interesting and potentially fun, I don't think you really made the case for their necessity. (And, for every good use you outlined, you could easily come up with a bad one.)

The argument about markers in dungeons is probably the best case for having something like this, but it'd probably be better served to just be a marker without text entry. Other MMOs have lettered/numbered markers for this express purpose, and that's a great feature request.

I just want to be clear that I'm not categorically against signs, but I was just trying to warn you about the argument you were up against.
InFRaReD28 wrote: »
They didn't say a word about rmhm.. Once again in the dark.

I thought they did, but you might be right. Right now we're on the 7 September (K-TERA) patch. I thought the January patch might take us to October (RMHM), but Male Brawler is November (K-TERA) and they're skipping/combining one. So it is possible that this dungeon might come in March, and not in January.
They said on the mid-December QA live stream that it was coming in January, and then they'd be skipping the build in February (it'd be combined in the March build). So, if past patches are any indicator, information will probably start coming soon.
6R1MM01R3 wrote: »
In Ktera you can "fuse" rare or superior inner wear and get a random one, like you do with crystals but that wasn't implemented in any other regions. I think in Ktera you can also combine unwanted cosmetics and get random others, too.

When this was brought up in the past, anyway, they said that the reason they don't want this here is because the cash shop allows you to choose the type of inner armor you want, whereas that doesn't happen in K-TERA (and you have a high risk, even in the cash shop, of getting a type you don't want, hence this way of dealing with the "trash"). Of course, this explanation doesn't apply to inner armor earned in-game via goldfinger tokens, where everything's in the same pool, so this solution would be more useful.

Using cubes for cosmetics is also because their lootbox system is different. I know at least in J-TERA, sometimes they have it so that you have to use the lootboxes to get the regular costumes, and then double-RNG with the cubes to trade the regular ones in hopes for one of the rare ones. I hope we avoid being forced into these sorts of double-RNG systems.
Naru2008 wrote: »
Wish I had took a video of him flying around in circles, with the trails in the air, but it was unexpected, and he did like two to three laps, so no chance to launch any recording software. :(

He showed them off previously on one of the live streams, so you'll probably be able to get footage from that if you need it. I think it was the Q&A stream just before the holidays.
TYoung11 wrote: »
I know a lot of people want them as "markers" for various reasons. One of the more popular is to mark the "safe" spots in P4 of HH for people learning the DG. What about a version you can't write on. That would make a lot of people happy.

Having generic placeable "markers" does seem like a good feature request. You could also make it so that it's only visible to the party/raid, if there's concern about performance in the open world.
Margarethe wrote: »
TheDarkWan wrote: »
Well, looks like this is it for the feedback. Nice responses EME.

These sorts of vision/strategic decisions are many layers above them, would apply to the game worldwide, and would take months/years to be implemented. What sort of further feedback do you expect?

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/59815784/and-then-i-said-thanks-for-the-feedback.jpg

Point taken. I should have said "want" not "expect."
TheDarkWan wrote: »
Well, looks like this is it for the feedback. Nice responses EME.

These sorts of vision/strategic decisions are many layers above them, would apply to the game worldwide, and would take months/years to be implemented. What sort of further feedback do you expect?
Basically, even if it isn't a "fair" popularity test, I am sure the executives will be watching it closely to see what happens. There are always new players as well. The whole reason they made this decision to focus on females in the first place was in looking at metrics worldwide (including, of course, costume sales).
Rather than getting so indignant about not having them, it would probably be more convincing (particularly for signs) if you'd make the case on why it's so beneficial to the game to have it. I think they just decided it wasn't worth the hassle, and I'm not sure the argument here is that convincing. How has not having these things harmed the game? How would the game be better with these things enabled?

And let's not pretend: no amount of word filter is going to solve the sign moderation problem. People will immediately find a way around it, and make a game of doing so. Maybe it's worth dealing with the moderation problem anyway, but that's why I'd focus on making the case for the good use of signs (so they can be convinced it's worth the hassle).

Finally, with all the things going on right now, I'm not sure it is the time, but obviously that (like all of this) is up to them.
Bjond wrote: »
In the cases where there are limits (newly-released raids, etc.), they also implement it so that there are limits on looting, rather than limits on entry. This specifically is the key change I think should be brought over in this regard.

I'd punt Tera in an instant if there were FFXIV-style limits. It's 90% of the reason I left FFXIV. I didn't want to restructure my life around the game to permit me to loot. That game literally zeroes the drops if someone else has looted from the same dungeon that week. So, what you need to do is only run once a week and then only with the same people you are 100% sure have not run it earlier in the week. The only way to be sure is either trust or run it right after weekly reset. So, if you want progress at the cap, you live your life around the game or punt it.

I don't mind if I only get one part a week, but if I can't get anything at all because of what someone else did earlier in the week when I wasn't even present, I'm out.
I guess I was thinking more of the system in Alliance Raids in that game where you personally cannot loot on items, but it doesn't impact the rest of the party. It doesn't restrict entry, but restricts personal looting (rather than entry). I agree that basing it on whether other people in the party have looted or not is not a good thing to bring forward here.
96GYC674J3 wrote: »
Tera could be much more popular than it is with just a few changes that would make casuals, PVE, PVP, and hardcore all relatively happy. There are a very limited amount of people that want to play Elins, or female characters.
But this is the niche that supports TERA the most, and has stuck with it through the years. If it were so simple to just make "a few changes" that would dramatically change the game's popularity, I'm quite sure that all the many companies relying on TERA (6 global publishers plus the developer) would have pushed for it by now.

That being said... I really, really hope that all the people pushing so hard for removing gender-lock will make male brawlers a big success. That will be the true test here, and will no doubt inform future decisions. They'll care about the metrics a lot more than any amount of forum threads.
To just literally address the issues...

As far as patches go, BHS synchronized all the global builds so that the timing will be around the same for each region. For instance, Europe got Patch 63 on December 12, and we got it on December 14, and we're actually on the same build now.

As for cash shop items like the mech suits, we know they're already in our build because EME showed them off on stream on live servers. But EME always schedules/stages their cash shop releases, and they decided to hold the suits off to later so it wouldn't conflict with Christmas. This is something they've done for years, for better or worse.

Gameforge did their own beta test of Dreadspire that led to them adding it to their servers separately. During the same time period that Gameforge was working on this, EME was working on the TERA Console Technical Test (which Gameforge wasn't involved in). So I assume we will get Dreadspire back when BHS adds it to the base game for all regions, unless they are able to bring it over separately.

As for the tradeable mat boxes, until recently, Gameforge has been more willing to make adjustments to the flow of mats and methods of earning them than EME was because of their conscious decision to stick closer to the BHS defaults this new gear cycle and see how things went. We saw this week that they are starting to make some more changes (changes to PvP rewards, addition of metamorphics in some dungeons that were missing them, etc.) so maybe they will start considering changes like this now.

Also, regarding Gameforge's news post... for a while now, EME and Gameforge have had different approaches to how they handle communicating about future patches. EME tends to hold information about patches closer to the vest, choosing to reveal them in staged campaigns right near the patch release and only talking in broad generalities before then. Gameforge, on the other hand, has a tendency to promote information about future patches the moment they get the info. I think that EME assumes that people who really want to know info about future patches will already be getting it from fan sources anyway... but I think it does cause a difference in perception (as we see here).

Anyway, this is just trying to report on the points addressed. The objective truth is that we are not behind or delayed on the whole, but it feels that way through a combination of circumstances, which EME should probably address.

Sometimes they do have problems with codes, but this particular code appears to be working fine in general. That's why I suspect there is something different going on in your account's case. I would suggest to contact support, but it's probably not worth it for some reward points and 7-day sugar-spun wings.
I believe you are correct. Just tried the GF's account and it worked fine.
And yeah, I'm not going to contact them over a little bit of reward points and a 7 day cosmetic.
I apologize for this and well I guess I'll have to wait for next week's code.

No apologies necessary! It's definitely weird that it isn't working on your main account.
You may have already redeemed the same code in the past. Not sure if it was a new code for this week's stream, necessary.

Never used the code at any other point in time. While this doesn't happen to often, they have had problems with codes.
Here is proof, I cannot redeem these at all.

Sometimes they do have problems with codes, but this particular code appears to be working fine in general. That's why I suspect there is something different going on in your account's case. I would suggest to contact support, but it's probably not worth it for some reward points and 7-day sugar-spun wings.
You may have already redeemed the same code in the past. Not sure if it was a new code for this week's stream, necessary.
My guess is that it's trying to self-upgrade the launcher and failing. I recommend, immediately after the launcher shuts itself off, to grab a copy of the launcher.log file in your install folder, and send that to Support in a ticket. That log file contains details of what the launcher is trying to do.

If you feel comfortable posting that here, or sending it to me via PM, there's also a good chance I can figure it out using that, but otherwise send it to Support and they'll be able to read it.
Btw there up Counterpoint explained about time. Originally 12am is 0.00. 12 midday is 12pm.

p.s. Or not? Even more mess now.

Yes, if you are using 24-hour time: 12:00am is 0:00 ("midnight"), and 12:00pm is 12:00 ("noon"). There was no ambiguity intended about the start time.
Viauxi wrote: »
There is a reason why f2p mmos feel so much different to play compared to p2p mmos like ffxiv, wow, gw2, etc. P2p mmos feel much more like complete and pure experiences. In p2p games, you don't feel like there is this greedy cash shop from corporate that's constantly looming over you, tainting your experience as a whole. The reason is because there is a lack of (or simply isn't any) microtransactions, p2w elements, and massive RNG progression systems in these games, thus they provide a much more honest and immersive experience for the player. This is why I can hardly play f2p games anymore, I only check Tera's forums every 3-6 months because I can't stomach playing the current version of it, so I don't.

Just want to point out... despite the fact it doesn't "feel" this way, it honestly still exists. Even in FFXIV, WoW, etc. there's a massive gold-selling and "carry-selling" scheme just barely under the surface. The difference is, as you say, in the "feeling" because it doesn't seem like the game maker is pushing/encouraging it. But if you ask if there "is an option or avenue to use real world currency to gain some sort of moderate to SIGNIFICANT edge over others" in these p2p mmos, the answer is absolutely yes. It's just easier to remain blissfully unaware, if you want.

This is why I always say debates on the definition of "p2w" are utterly pointless. You just have to decide what sort of models and mechanics you can tolerate, and what you can't.
clfarron4 wrote: »
Drop Rate: Increases the number of times the game runs through the loot table. 2x Drop Rate = Double the number of loot items.

Drop Chance: Increases the probabilities of items dropping on the loot table. 2x Drop Chance = Doubles the probability of each item to drop before running through the loot table. Same number of items as standard drops.

I wasn't under the impression that there were different types of events.

They way they seemed to explain it, an item with 25% chance under the new system would double to 50% chance. But an item with 75% chance would double to 150% chance, so you'll either get 1 or 2 (but never 0).

Under the old system, and item with 25% chance would have 2 chances at 25%, so you'd either get 0, 1, or 2. Under the new system, you'd either get 0 or 1.

If that's how it works, then instances that drop large amounts of items at low chance would see less of an impact (more "reliable" drops) than instances that drop small amounts of items at high chance (more "quantity" drops).

Then again, it wasn't very clearly explained, so this could be totally wrong. But it did seem to match the behaviour that happened last time around... until now.

In any case, who knows. It's not doing what people expect for a double drop (if it's even doing anything), so they'll have to look at it.
People on Discord are saying that it's working in Pit, but just not GG.
From what I've heard so far, games should not be particularly impacted because of the nature of the kernel calls they make. But regardless... I'm not sure there's much choice in the matter either way. Even if it did have a performance impact, probably isn't a good idea to avoid the patch (even though, as an individual user, you probably don't have that big of an attack surface).
Thanks I will use that. It wasn't just me only it was half my party for the dungeon I was in at the time.
Happens oddly around a certain time and goes away after a bit.

Yeah, what we've seen so far is that certain providers are taking a certain route into the server that is getting really delayed/swamped during U.S. prime time. After prime time, it calms down. You can take a VPN to get around it most of the time, but obviously that shouldn't be required. If EME can get data from a bunch of people who have problems with the same nodes, they could elevate it to their hosting provider... and maybe there's a chance.
To eliminate potential causes, could you post the latter part of your traceroute to diag.enmasse.com? For instance, here's mine at the moment (omitting the first few hops):

5 55 ms 24 ms 25 ms 10ge13-7.core1.tor1.he.net [184.105.223.129]
6 29 ms 29 ms 38 ms 100ge9-2.core2.chi1.he.net [184.105.80.5]
7 29 ms 28 ms 28 ms 100ge5-2.core1.chi1.he.net [184.105.81.98]
8 30 ms 28 ms 29 ms mfnx-as6461.10gigabitethernet1-8.core1.chi1.he.net [216.66.77.218]
9 29 ms 29 ms 29 ms ae17.cr2.ord2.us.zip.zayo.com [64.125.31.82]
10 35 ms 32 ms 46 ms ae1.mpr1.ord6.us.zip.zayo.com [64.125.30.119]
11 32 ms 33 ms 43 ms ae2.mpr1.ord5.us.zip.zayo.com [64.125.28.66]
12 55 ms 34 ms 33 ms 64.125.186.90
13 35 ms 37 ms 43 ms 208.67.49.180

Also, in-game for me at the moment:

65bf513525.png

If you're getting this problem specifically, I recommend following the instructions here to send to diag@enmasse.com. They have this special address just to gather data about server connectivity problems.
Just in case anyone missed it, it is fixed now and this coming weekend there'll be triple-Vanguard rep/items as compensation.
Everything in this gear cycle was set by BHS, since EME decided that, after messing with mats via events so much last round, they were going to stick to BHS's defaults to see how it went. Player Council had absolutely zero input into anything, since everything was driven by that EME decision.

It may be that, having seen how it's gone for the last few months, their willingness to make adjustments will increase, and they'll start taking input again. But they made it very clear that they had no plans to adjust anything until they saw how it went. The feedback in this thread is part of "how it went."
Xristosx wrote: »
Also on the topic of vg rewards, what ever happened to RKHM's vanguard with metamorphic tokens, Every other region rewards 4500 metamorphics(Yes EU and RU as well as korea) each clear and we have the base stuff in NA. Why is that? Why is NA getting less stuff then the grindy Korean counterpart? They had this since the start of the patch as well so its not a later thing.

This part was addressed earlier in this thread here.
HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
If am not getting this wrong then we are going to get triple vanguard rewards until 30 January?

I think it's like this:

1) Now it's back to double.
2) This weekend it'll be triple.
3) For the rest of the January after this weekend, it'll be double.
4) From February on, it'll be scheduled and not always-on (and sometimes triple, not just double).

Yithar wrote: »
I actually don't like the gameplay of FFXIV (tanking in that game is boring as hell; GCD is long; animations can't be cancelled; it's basically too JRPG), but if there was anything I would bring over from FFXIV it's that you can run instances over and over without a limit. So like even if people have to roll against each other on an item for gear, it doesn't matter. They can just run the instance over and over again.

In the cases where there are limits (newly-released raids, etc.), they also implement it so that there are limits on looting, rather than limits on entry. This specifically is the key change I think should be brought over in this regard.

Yithar wrote: »
FFXIV's community isn't necessarily better; they're just better at hiding their bad behavior.

I do think that having money invested in the game causes many people to take things a bit more seriously, which also happened back when TERA was P2P (and is why it was even possible to do things like Vanarchy). With TERA the way it is now, and the leveling/gearing process being what it is, people seem more apt to treat their accounts as throwaways and not care about any potential consequences to their actions/behavior. Basically, P2P seems to serve as a natural limiter for most people, which TERA doesn't have.

(The other major difference, of course, is that the "vibe" of the community is better because there is more confidence in the game's continue growth. Suffice it to say, that confidence and optimism is hard to come by around here, even among people who still genuinely prefer the core gameplay.)
Moroku wrote: »
You are literally the reason why this game has gone to [filtered].

I clearly have a hell of a lot more power and influence than I ever realized.
Jerichow wrote: »
One of, if not the single biggest reason my friends and I see that Tera can't hold new playeris because it's advertising itself as something that it's not. Tera is a game advertised as an MMORPG, but after playing it for a a few days, or even a few hours - most new players are seeing that this game is in fact, NOT an RPG. It's a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements. People come looking for an RPG, when they see that this isn't what they were looking for, they leave.

The ironic thing about your post and all that follows is that, actually, it seems they're very keenly aware of this issue, but they took the exact opposite approach to solving it. They doubled down on action combat as the key selling point. Consider all the changes they made in the last few years:

1) The new tutorial map places a greater, more focused emphasis on action combat throughout.
2) The changes they made to dungeons and the addition of vanguard quests (and phasing out of side-quests) keep a greater emphasis on combat rather that the world/lore/NPCs.
3) The speeding up of the leveling process (and the option to level via dungeons, BGs, BAMs, etc.) gives people more ways to level through combat.
4) Crafting was refocused to have basically no use except to support the gearing process either directly or indirectly.
5) Gear drops simplified during leveling to allow people to level how they chose, rather than being forced into the typical RPG pattern.

There's basically no side-systems, no deep engagement in the world/lore, just... action combat.

My conclusion, in seeing the changes they've made over the years, is that they're running in the exact opposite direction of making the game more RPG-like, and explicitly trying to make ti be more like "a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements." My guess is that it's because they decided to double-down on their strength rather than spend an enormous amount of time/money shoring up their many weaknesses (some of which you touched upon).

For this reason, although the feedback is constructive, I think it's an extremely tough hill to climb to convince the very top people at BHS to change the game's development direction that will affect all markets worldwide. Most of these decisions were probably made supported by various forms of retention data/metrics that we unfortunately don't have. And even if they did agree conceptually, it would likely take a year or more before the effects of any such course correction would be felt. Will they think the game too old now to warrant such a dramatic re-imagining to "bring the RPG back"? (A more fundamental question, perhaps, what even is their vision for TERA five years from now? Do they have one?)

I do think some of TERA's biggest problems are vision-related; namely, the lack of a clear vision and effective focus. They've got too small a team to pretend they can be all things to all people, and spent too much time doing all things poorly. But even if they do cast a vision and make it clear, I think it's likely this will leave some players behind realizing that BHS's vision doesn't align with what they want in a game. That would be painful, but at the same time, may be the only path forward for the long run.

Anyway, it was an interesting read, even if I didn't entirely agree with some of the specific suggestions.

if they are so adamant about tera being action combat game and slowly killing the lore, then they should just make everyone level 65 at the start and then as we play through the game we get better and better gear.

Maybe not 65 at the start, but look at all EME's other games: no open world, just lobbies and instances with a focus on combat. (Sort of like Phantasy Star Online used to be? Haven't played the new one, but I assume it's the same.)

I'm not saying that's what I want from the game, as I like the "RPG" side a lot too. But it really feels sometimes that this is more where they're headed with this game. They seem to not really do what to do with the open world, and so are making it less and less relevant as time goes.
6HDANDTPAY wrote: »
Actually there’s no bias against @counterpoint in fact if you actually read what I said in such post you’d have seen that I too look up to him/her, because he/she does know quite a lot, and has been here for a long time, but just because I look up to him/her it does not mean that I must accept everything he/she says.

Real convincing with lines like:

"if you beg to differ you couldn’t be more wrong"
"for someone that defends EME so much"
"Especially when you have not addressed a single issue asking for things to change."
"Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, which I’m fairly certain am not"
"make sure to include proof"

With friends like these, who needs enemies! Aren't you bored of spreading random dissension and FUD about me yet? This is exactly the kind of distraction that makes our community look so childish.
Jerichow wrote: »
One of, if not the single biggest reason my friends and I see that Tera can't hold new playeris because it's advertising itself as something that it's not. Tera is a game advertised as an MMORPG, but after playing it for a a few days, or even a few hours - most new players are seeing that this game is in fact, NOT an RPG. It's a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements. People come looking for an RPG, when they see that this isn't what they were looking for, they leave.

The ironic thing about your post and all that follows is that, actually, it seems they're very keenly aware of this issue, but they took the exact opposite approach to solving it. They doubled down on action combat as the key selling point. Consider all the changes they made in the last few years:

1) The new tutorial map places a greater, more focused emphasis on action combat throughout.
2) The changes they made to dungeons and the addition of vanguard quests (and phasing out of side-quests) keep a greater emphasis on combat rather that the world/lore/NPCs.
3) The speeding up of the leveling process (and the option to level via dungeons, BGs, BAMs, etc.) gives people more ways to level through combat.
4) Crafting was refocused to have basically no use except to support the gearing process either directly or indirectly.
5) Gear drops simplified during leveling to allow people to level how they chose, rather than being forced into the typical RPG pattern.

There's basically no side-systems, no deep engagement in the world/lore, just... action combat.

My conclusion, in seeing the changes they've made over the years, is that they're running in the exact opposite direction of making the game more RPG-like, and explicitly trying to make ti be more like "a true action combat game set in a fantasy world with RPG elements." My guess is that it's because they decided to double-down on their strength rather than spend an enormous amount of time/money shoring up their many weaknesses (some of which you touched upon).

For this reason, although the feedback is constructive, I think it's an extremely tough hill to climb to convince the very top people at BHS to change the game's development direction that will affect all markets worldwide. Most of these decisions were probably made supported by various forms of retention data/metrics that we unfortunately don't have. And even if they did agree conceptually, it would likely take a year or more before the effects of any such course correction would be felt. Will they think the game too old now to warrant such a dramatic re-imagining to "bring the RPG back"? (A more fundamental question, perhaps, what even is their vision for TERA five years from now? Do they have one?)

I do think some of TERA's biggest problems are vision-related; namely, the lack of a clear vision and effective focus. They've got too small a team to pretend they can be all things to all people, and spent too much time doing all things poorly. But even if they do cast a vision and make it clear, I think it's likely this will leave some players behind realizing that BHS's vision doesn't align with what they want in a game. That would be painful, but at the same time, may be the only path forward for the long run.

Anyway, it was an interesting read, even if I didn't entirely agree with some of the specific suggestions.
6HDANDTPAY wrote: »
it is a scummy marketing tactic to say that Lvl58 gear is high-end gear, and don’t make up excuses for them, don’t say that for a fresh Lvl60 it would be high-end, it’s not. High-end is high-end, Lvl65. It wasn’t a poor choice of words and we all know this to be true, and if you beg to differ you couldn’t be more wrong, it was a scummy marketing tactic, plain and simple — and they should be ashamed, because for 5, almost 6 years they’ve had one of the most supportive community out there.
Read the actual news post. The bullet list says, first, "the bundle includes [...] complete set of level 58 gear". And then later on, when linking to the guide on how to do the stat rolls, they used the word "high-end" to describe the gear -- and when you follow the link, it's because you have to roll stats on it. If this is such a "scummy marketing tactic" why would they flat out tell you the level of the gear, and show you that it's lower than the level of the scroll? And who is really going to be mislead by this thinking they got end-game gear when they already said it's 7 levels below the cap...?

Using the word "high-end" was clearly stupid, and if any of us had been allowed to see/edit the post we would have changed it. But I truly don't think anyone at EME would have cared in the slightest about changing that word because this wasn't part of some diabolical marketing genius plan to trick people into buying a $15 level 60 scroll bundle. They just don't realize that using that word would trigger people. This is exactly why we want them to rely on the Player Council more to review stuff before it goes out.

But hey, who could possibly refute "we all know this to be true" and "if you beg to differ you couldn't be more wrong." Certainly no logical argument can survive such a powerful onslaught.

6HDANDTPAY wrote: »
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, which I’m fairly certain am not — make sure to include proof, and no, being part of the Player Council doesn’t serve you as proof without actual evidence.
*rolleyes* I'm not spending the next hours digging through thousands of forum posts and Slack chats to organize "proof" for you. I purposefully chose those issues because most of them are my personal pet peeves related to the cash shop that I've harped on, in some cases, for years. If you want a pointer, look for pretty much any thread you can find with someone complaining about losing at lootboxes and my proposed remedies. I also, for what it's worth, have been making EME aware of all the prevailing winds related to lootbox regulation and asking them to finally get ahead of the curve and not wait.

At the end of the day, all you're trying to do here is deflect the conversation away from the validity of this thread's arguments and the rebuttal, and onto my character instead.
Margarethe wrote: »
Skrux wrote: »
How can EME learn that their players are unhappy if they don't post about it? I'm confused. EME has sold-out, too. They need a wake-up call.

Sure, when a baby cries in the middle of the night, it's a wake-up call. You give it its bottle, pat it gently on the back, sing it a lullaby, and put it back to sleep.

If we want to stop being treated like petulant children -with a credit card- needing to be pacified, we need to stop acting like it.


Skrux wrote: »
Naru2008 wrote: »
And yet no one learns.

No one learns that the way they do things will not get EME to take them seriously.

No one learns that there's not two sides. There's multiple, more than two.

No one learns (usually the same people over and over who are completely ignorant) that counterpoint (and others like myself) aren't EME White Knights, and they call them out for being so (which they should get banned for in the first place for call-outs).

It's threads like this that actually partially contribute to the death of the game, and honestly probably make EME staff not want to login to deal with the stupidity and toxicity found in this forum community. Geez. How many times must this be explained before anyone actually learns their lesson?

In my opinion, the post is justified. Eme has clearly given up on Tera PC and has dumped all of their eggs into the Tera console basket. RIP Tera PC.

It's literally a third-party promotion to attract new players to TERA PC that has absolutely nothing to do with console at all.

Just because you have random feelings of betrayal about TERA PC does not mean that this thread and this thread's arguments make any sense whatsoever as a way to address that. It's not like "I'm mad, and this thread is mad and saying mad things, so this thread is good!" (And "counterpoint is arguing against this mad thread, so counterpoint is against the mad players, and must be an undercover employee of EME because that's the only other conceivable reason in existence he'd be against mad things!") We have to stop this childishness.

You forgot the credit card.

Children don't have credit cards, so they have no standing to complain about it anyway. They'll have to ask their parents to complain on their behalf.
Skrux wrote: »
How can EME learn that their players are unhappy if they don't post about it? I'm confused. EME has sold-out, too. They need a wake-up call.

Sure, when a baby cries in the middle of the night, it's a wake-up call. You give it its bottle, pat it gently on the back, sing it a lullaby, and put it back to sleep.

If we want to stop being treated like petulant children needing to be pacified, we need to stop acting like it.


Skrux wrote: »
Naru2008 wrote: »
And yet no one learns.

No one learns that the way they do things will not get EME to take them seriously.

No one learns that there's not two sides. There's multiple, more than two.

No one learns (usually the same people over and over who are completely ignorant) that counterpoint (and others like myself) aren't EME White Knights, and they call them out for being so (which they should get banned for in the first place for call-outs).

It's threads like this that actually partially contribute to the death of the game, and honestly probably make EME staff not want to login to deal with the stupidity and toxicity found in this forum community. Geez. How many times must this be explained before anyone actually learns their lesson?

In my opinion, the post is justified. Eme has clearly given up on Tera PC and has dumped all of their eggs into the Tera console basket. RIP Tera PC.

It's literally a third-party promotion to attract new players to TERA PC that has absolutely nothing to do with console at all.

Just because you have random feelings of betrayal about TERA PC does not mean that this thread and this thread's arguments make any sense whatsoever as way to address that.
If you wanted to do this, it'd probably be more straightforward to create a sort of "costume slot" for mounts that overrides the mount's appearance with whatever you choose.
KHD7GK7D33 wrote: »
Who's side is Counterpoint on? He looks like an undercover EME staff to me. LOL

I'm on the "side" of wanting to see TERA survive and for important issues to be addressed and resolved. When people go off the rails on stupid non-issues like this (rather than the actual issues where they can make a valid, defensible case), it causes the people in power to take this forum less seriously and pay even less attention to it than they already do. It's a waste of everyone's time, and just gets people riled up over nothing. You can't have the dial turned to 11 all the time and expect people to hear anything.

There's a wealth of actual important issues to deal with, and a $15 level 60 scroll sale is the least of our worries (when a lesser thing is normally sold for $50). People need to stop polluting this forum with senseless noise.
In your case, it sounds like it's probably because the route you're taking the server is affected by the storm. To check this, I recommend opening a command prompt and typing "tracert diag.enmasse.com". That will likely provide some information on where the problem is happening, and if it's local or somewhere in North America.

Other games have servers located in other places in North America, so make take different paths to get there.
It says "until maintenance on Tuesday, January 2" on the news post -- so I take it that means until 08:00am PST.
Uptown wrote: »
I never said that I didn't think charging 50$ for a level 60 scroll wasn't a rip off; it's also pay-to-win in my opinion, and adding the $15 deal incentivised experienced players to purchase the pass for the sole purpose of re-selling the level 60 scroll on the trade broker as it has a better conversion ratio than gold:emp. You're aimlessly grabbing at straws to keep your 'counterpoints' going now. I'm out. pce

Your argument completely collapsed. At first it was "intended to take advantage of new/uninformed players" but now you're saying it "incentivised experienced players to purchase the pass for the sole purpose of re-selling". But if experienced players bought it to resell, they certainly weren't being "tricked" by the level 58 items you were complaining about originally. And if it's getting a "better conversion ratio than gold:emp" then doesn't that mean it actually does have value to people? But I thought you said "level 60 scrolls are worthless as people can easily level to 60 in a day"? So people think something worthless is a good broker investment? And now you're saying it's pay-to-win? If it's so worthless that it isn't even worth $15 (when it includes 15 days Elite), then what the heck are they winning...?

If you want some defensible "EME is greedy" complaints, how about these:

1) Cash shop prices have been increasing steadily.
2) Lootboxes don't have posted odds.
3) Lootboxes don't have failure caps.
4) Lootbox runner-up items are now mostly untradable, making it harder to get the item you want on the broker.
5) EME appears to be gradually phasing out account mounts.
6) The TERA Rewards Emporium, which is supposed to reward cash shop purchasers, has horribly out-dated rewards.

Don't just virtue signal to all the disgruntled people who will say everything and anything EME does is bad because EME is bad and they should feel bad. Make a real case. There's plenty to choose from.
Margarethe wrote: »
Instances are on different servers than the world servers. Is the lag happening only when in instances, or is it everywhere?

Didn't notice on open world.
Believe, only in dungeons.

Okay, if it's possible to isolate which dungeons in particular, that would help too. From what I remember in the past, dungeons are grouped on specific servers. It could be that the most popular dungeons happen to be all clumped together.
I think the only real solutions to something like this is either a) the GMs warping your character to somewhere else (not sure if there's someone working today since it a holiday), or b) maybe server maintenance resets wherever you're stuck. Hopefully they'll get back to your ticket soon.
Instances are on different servers than the world servers. Is the lag happening only when in instances, or is it everywhere?
Uptown wrote: »
Uptown wrote: »
Uptown wrote: »
LegateTR wrote: »
Get ready for counterpoint to come defend EME lmao.

No, I'm calling out this forum getting this triggered over a poor choice of words.

No one would see them including "level 58 gear" with a level 60 scroll and think they meant end-game gear. No one. You just need some gear to start the level 60 quests, and that's all this for. That's it. All this is because they use the words "high-end gear" instead of "superior gear" when linking to a guide for stat rolling.

If you're going to pick a hill to make your stand, I have no idea in the world why you chose this.

Do you even know what you're talking about? They literally have a hyperlink titled " fit them out with high-end gear" that brings up a page highlighting level 58 gear.

Read the only reason why it exists:

"Please note, however, that prior to equipping each piece of gear you will need to set the enchantment for the item. Fear not. Instructions on how to do this are below."

It's instructions on how to roll stats because new players don't know how stat rolling works! Shocking!

Oh, well that makes their scummy marketing campaign more tolerable. Nice counterpoint.

They took a level 60 scroll that normally sells for $50, threw in starter gear and 15-days Elite, and sold it for $15. That's it!

Mad about no Christmas events? I completely get it. Angry about the fact the staff are ignoring the game's many issues as it continues its inevitable descent into certain doom? Okay, makes sense. But this?

Level 60 scrolls are worthless as people can easily level to 60 in a day. The sale was intended to take advantage of new/uninformed players. Period.

So why aren't we more mad that they're on the store right now for $50 and include no starter gear and no Elite? Isn't everyone who buys it as it is being way more taken advantage of right now?

And hell, if someone decides that it's worth spending $15 to save them a day of leveling (because a day is worth $15 to them), okay...? Heck, even if they put a notice right on there "leveling to level 60 normally takes a brand-new player 10-15 hours"... some people would find that worth it for $15 with the 15 days Elite included.

Again, of all the hills to die on, I truly don't get why this is the one.
Uptown wrote: »
Uptown wrote: »
LegateTR wrote: »
Get ready for counterpoint to come defend EME lmao.

No, I'm calling out this forum getting this triggered over a poor choice of words.

No one would see them including "level 58 gear" with a level 60 scroll and think they meant end-game gear. No one. You just need some gear to start the level 60 quests, and that's all this for. That's it. All this is because they use the words "high-end gear" instead of "superior gear" when linking to a guide for stat rolling.

If you're going to pick a hill to make your stand, I have no idea in the world why you chose this.

Do you even know what you're talking about? They literally have a hyperlink titled " fit them out with high-end gear" that brings up a page highlighting level 58 gear.

Read the only reason why it exists:

"Please note, however, that prior to equipping each piece of gear you will need to set the enchantment for the item. Fear not. Instructions on how to do this are below."

It's instructions on how to roll stats because new players don't know how stat rolling works! Shocking!

Oh, well that makes their scummy marketing campaign more tolerable. Nice counterpoint.

They took a level 60 scroll that normally sells for $50, threw in starter gear and 15-days Elite, and sold it for $15. That's it!

Mad about no Christmas events? I completely get it. Angry about the fact the staff are ignoring the game's many issues as it continues its inevitable descent into certain doom? Okay, makes sense. But this?
Uptown wrote: »
LegateTR wrote: »
Get ready for counterpoint to come defend EME lmao.

No, I'm calling out this forum getting this triggered over a poor choice of words.

No one would see them including "level 58 gear" with a level 60 scroll and think they meant end-game gear. No one. You just need some gear to start the level 60 quests, and that's all this for. That's it. All this is because they use the words "high-end gear" instead of "superior gear" when linking to a guide for stat rolling.

If you're going to pick a hill to make your stand, I have no idea in the world why you chose this.

Do you even know what you're talking about? They literally have a hyperlink titled " fit them out with high-end gear" that brings up a page highlighting level 58 gear.

Read the only reason why it exists:

"Please note, however, that prior to equipping each piece of gear you will need to set the enchantment for the item. Fear not. Instructions on how to do this are below."

LegateTR wrote: »
Get ready for counterpoint to come defend EME lmao.

No, I'm calling out this forum getting this triggered over a poor choice of words.

No one would see them including "level 58 gear" with a level 60 scroll and think they meant end-game gear. No one. You just need some gear to start the level 60 quests, and that's all this for. That's it. All this is because they use the words "high-end gear" instead of "superior gear" when linking to a guide for stat rolling.

If you're going to pick a hill to make your stand, I have no idea in the world why you chose this.
You can get them from all BAMs, although lower-level BAMs drop smaller stacks (and only if you're within a certain level range). They're also rewarded on the calendar from the time-to-time, and have been given away during events before (and, occasionally, as guaranteed items in certain lootboxes).

As far as making them more/less available, they said so far that they have no intention to lessen supply, but they'll be re-evaluating everything as part of the revamp. They also mentioned that aligning the fashion rewards more closely with K-TERA might also mean more items on vanguard merchant as well (if they follow K-TERA) so this may enter into the equation in terms of price/availability.

Probably EME hasn't made any of these decisions yet, but I suppose they'll be looking into it during the next few weeks. It's currently scheduled for February on the roadmap.
Basically, this is a time zone bug. If you want to be extra sure you get the reward (one Dyad Niveot Structure), you can close the game and change your computer's time zone to UTC/GMT or anything after that. Then, as people explained above, the rewards that would normally show up on the 31st will show up on the 1st (everything offset by one).

I don't think it will matter if you do this time zone trick today, so long as you do it any time within the next month (unless they find some other fix).
Thanks you too. I was wondering if u guys could tell me if the new years eve event already finished that seandynamite mentioned. I don't really wanna be waiting around too long if i already missed it.

The double drop and bonus loot chance is on all weekend, but you can login now (and then again each hour for the next 3 hours) to collect fireworks.

That notwithstanding, happy new year to everyone!
I believe the Boneshaker mount is seasonal, and it tends to be brought back during Halloween timeframe. (You might also check the broker to see if there are some still there at a reasonable price on your server.)

For the silver tiara, though, it's available on the Fashion Coupon merchant (end of the 4th tab) for 150 Fashion Coupons.
canikizu wrote: »
In KTera, clearing RKEM gives player 4500 Metamorphic Token, but in our version, we get 0 tokens for clearing the dungeon, which is worse than every single dungeons out there.
Is that what they get now, or is that what they got when they were on the same patch several months ago?
zenpiax wrote: »
Can some at EME address this?!?! WTF is going on lately with all this ninja patches... where is the [filtered] transparency EME?!?!

It's not a ninja patch. Probably when they programmed the event years ago, they had to set an expiry date, so they set it to 2017-12-31 23:59:59 or something thinking it was "way in the future". The future is now...
I suspect the double vanguard rep/item event that's been running for a long time probably was set to expire at the end of the year, and it's been on for so long that they didn't realize it had an expiry date. They can probably fix it.
Babbelsim wrote: »
January rewards are there yes, EU servers had the same issue they just send the reward by parcel

The fireworks boxes we're getting tonight by parcel might be for a similar reason.
G9474MWTNY wrote: »
Stop sucking EME off for one second and look at the evidence stated, although you believe it isn't "solid" in the first place.

No, stop. I'm telling you, if you want a case I can bring forward to them, you need to do better than circumstantial evidence like this. The whole thing hinges on the fact that they didn't provide the convicting evidence, but as I said before, absence of proof isn't proof of absence. You insinuate that, because they didn't provide the evidence, it either doesn't exist or is wrong.

You say people deserve to see the proof that banned them. But I guarantee they will say this will reveal details on the sort of techniques they use, which could allow people developing third-party programs to bypass those measures. So I would say that, at least, there should be an escalation process that gets reviewed by a third-party to verify the evidence is conclusive. But this will still mean that they may not reveal the evidence to the accused, and we still might be back in this situation.

Anyway, you can believe whatever you want about me, but I'm telling you honestly: this is inadmissible. This isn't about sucking EME off. If you want me to advocate your case, do better.

Margarethe wrote: »
How can you provide evidence when you don't know what you're being accused of?
Hope EME doesn't start a pathetic witch hunt.

No, precisely. But, based on the lack of evidence provided, they started this witch hunt thread the other way around, and so it will get deleted. If this were only about "someone feels they were wrongly accused due to a misunderstanding, but they've been banned and need a second chance" without all the conspiracy, maybe the thread would actually survive. (And honestly, it would probably help the person's likelihood of getting a second chance. After starting all this [filtered]? Doubtful...)

Can you tell me about a case you've personally advocated in the past for someone you have no relation to that received a third party program ban? How is it possible to prove to EME you're not injecting if they believe you are. Whose [filtered] can you pull evidence out of

I've advocated for situations where people were both getting wrongly accused due to systematic issues, and also against situations where people were getting away with clear cheating/exploits due to gaps in enforcement. But not framed like this, and not done in this way.

As I said earlier, I can support an argument that we need an objective system to advocate for people who might be wrongly-accused, as a cross-check to make sure the system is working. Also about needing clearer guidance about the rules and how they're enforced. But that's again framing the issue entirely differently than this thread.
G9474MWTNY wrote: »
Stop sucking EME off for one second and look at the evidence stated, although you believe it isn't "solid" in the first place.

No, stop. I'm telling you, if you want a case I can bring forward to them, you need to do better than circumstantial evidence like this. The whole thing hinges on the fact that they didn't provide the convicting evidence, but as I said before, absence of proof isn't proof of absence. You insinuate that, because they didn't provide the evidence, it either doesn't exist or is wrong.

You say people deserve to see the proof that banned them. But I guarantee they will say this will reveal details on the sort of techniques they use, which could allow people developing third-party programs to bypass those measures. So I would say that, at least, there should be an escalation process that gets reviewed by a third-party to verify the evidence is conclusive. But this will still mean that they may not reveal the evidence to the accused, and we still might be back in this situation.

Anyway, you can believe whatever you want about me, but I'm telling you honestly: this is inadmissible. This isn't about sucking EME off. If you want me to advocate your case, do better.
G9474MWTNY wrote: »
Margarethe wrote: »
The GM never said that the proof of using the third-party program happened at this particular moment. They said that the photo that was circulating caused them to investigate logs, and the logs showed evidence of using the program. The convicting evidence could be from an entirely different point in time for all we know.

The accused person even suggested it may have been due to the "misunderstanding", and the GM said clearly that wasn't the case. So this suggests they have separate evidence not explained by this claim. (Be sure to read the exchange in chronological order, not the vertical order.)

So basically, this whole thread is EME saying they have evidence of actual wrongdoing (not the accused's theory), and the accused not believing that they do have evidence. It doesn't necessarily mean that the accused was not in fact using third-party programs. There's no way for us to know.

Are we ignoring the warrior's dps?

Yes, because it has no bearing on the investigation...? They never said "your DPS is too high and that proves you're using third-party programs". He said "we saw a screenshot that caused us to investigate the logs, and then we found evidence of you using third-party programs." The whole thing is wild conjecture that the GM himself denied already.

It has bearing on the investigation if that's what prompted it. Are you blind?

What prompted the investigation doesn't matter. They can choose to investigate whoever they want for whatever reason. What matters is the evidence, and we don't know what the evidence is. So that's why I'm saying: without seeing the evidence, it's inconclusive.
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