TERA Online forum archive
Posts by counterpoint
Thuking wrote: »
Seems like alot of games are using these spyware now

FWIW, Red Shell is entirely different type of software. Of course people can be equally against both, but they're not equivalent.
MistyTera wrote: »
Let me get this straight even Kaspersky caused BSODs back in 2005 with it's kernel drivers. They fixed it!

XIGNCODE-It's been 9 years of development and it's still a mess!

Is EME/BHS helpful support passing forward to incompetent Wellbia doing something about these issues being fixed or not? Or even from any company?

Just to be clear... you mentioned before that you got a BSOD with a different game's implementation in the past. Are you actively getting a BSOD now with TERA? If you're not getting the issue now with TERA, it's possible the issue you had is already fixed. If you are getting the issue now with TERA, you should send your diag and log info to EME in a ticket.

Talking in abstract at this point isn't going to change anything, regardless of how anyone feels about the program.
I don't know why they just don't add everything in the shop and let people buy it. are the items taking up that much hard drive or server space?

Because it's a marketing strategy, that's all. I guess they'll look at the numbers to see if it works in the end.
Iirc we talked about it before, you started say it in many threads and people calmed down. But after,..something happened again.

Problem is, if you just say it in many threads, but nothing changes, people will think you're lying. Just like people think that Player Council "doesn't play the game" and all sort of other BS just because the problems aren't solved, as if the problem is that we didn't tell them or that EME doesn't know. At the end of the day, people want action.

(Not like I'm opposed to more confirmation of what issues have been relayed, but we've been down this road so many times before that we know where it ends.)

it would be nice of eme staff if the made a post or something in our forums, letting us know what some of the answers that bhs gave to them pertaining to our suggestions/ideas/complaints. at least then we wouldn't think they are lying to us or just placating us by giving us an statement and hoping we will forget. its been that way for years and people are starting to feel like mushrooms here.

Yeah, I've mentioned that a few times to them as well. I feel like there's a bit of a cultural thing about BHS being very traditional and hierarchical that prevents the sort of open communication our market is more used to, and that's really the source of a lot of problems for this game. Maybe we can try again to prepare a list of constructive politely-worded questions/concerns and ask again if there's any way to get them answered by BHS.
I feel like all answers should be posted in the tera forums here 1st before they post or tell in other social media sites. its like an easter egg hunt trying to find out any information pertaining to tera sometimes.

Obviously, I'm a forum person too, but I honestly wonder sometimes if we're a dying breed. The EME Discord has over 6000 people online on it, and over 18000 offline at the moment. Granted some of them are for EME's other games, of course, but maybe there really are more people there than on the forums these days. Still, I agree that there needs to be one single consolidated place for all the latest info that everyone can go to, and a chat isn't very good for that.
Iirc we talked about it before, you started say it in many threads and people calmed down. But after,..something happened again.

Problem is, if you just say it in many threads, but nothing changes, people will think you're lying. Just like people think that Player Council "doesn't play the game" and all sort of other BS just because the problems aren't solved, as if the problem is that we didn't tell them or that EME doesn't know. At the end of the day, people want action.

(Not like I'm opposed to more confirmation of what issues have been relayed, but we've been down this road so many times before that we know where it ends.)
I've removed the game from my system, after losing my SSD, replacing it( and getting two this time to separate my OS so i wouldn't have to reinstall windows a again) It keep crashing during the same spot of xigncode loading that borked my first ssd. I'm done. I'm out. EME and BHS won't get another cent from me until this hot garbage is removed. Ive got a mountain of other games and hobbies so it won't be hard. See you guys later. I'll keep an eye out from time to time but ultimately I'm disgusted with EME/BHS and am quite leery of trying anything from the in the future.
I realize you're "done" after what happened, but the most useful thing so that there's documented evidence of this problem happening (and exactly what caused it) would be if you could submit your diagnostic details to EME in a ticket, including your XIGNCODE log. Regardless of whether it results in them removing the tool or not, these bugs should be fixed.

I would man, but the SSD it destroyed was also the on that carried windows and i had to install a completely new copy of windows so all logs are unfortunately gone with the ssd.

Yeah, sorry, I just meant the logs for the crash after the re-install. Obviously, the logs from the original failure would be dead. But anyway, it really sucks that happened.
ladyraines wrote: »
How long has the bug been present?
Still doesn't fix the issue of constant extended maintenance.

Bug started in an attempt to fix a different bug a while ago -- maybe it was late-April? But the problem is it's a region-specific bug that can only be reproduced in specific hours. At least it's in process.

As for the extended maintenance -- they had a bad stretch for a while, but actually the last few weeks had all ended on-time. Today's case seems to be some unusual issue with the store, I guess. I don't think they'll ever eliminate the possibility of extending maintenance, but maybe you're right that they should consider some sort of compensation when it happens. What is right/fair, though, is another issue. I do think that the most important thing to do whenever something breaks is first to solve it, and worry about compensation later. That doesn't mean it should be forgotten though.
ladyraines wrote: »
Great missed today calendar claim because of the extended maintenance. Login last night and tried this morning and couldn't because of the "extended maintenance that lasted an additional two hours. Went to work and came back and can't claim rewards. Is there not comp for the extended maintenance.

The calendar thing is, sadly, a bug. I know they're aware of the bug at least. However, there's a pretty high chance that, if you login tomorrow morning, you'll be able to claim both today's and tomorrow's.

I know this doesn't address your larger point, but just wanted to explain this stupid bug with the calendar (that I've been elevating for weeks).

T5N5JX9HRP wrote: »
Naru2008 wrote: »
T5N5JX9HRP wrote: »
BOBBYYYY wrote: »
@CobaltDragon can you guys reply to any other threads regarding golden/silver/bluc nocs problems? we know you guys see them. its rude as hell to ignore tbh.
I constantly send that feedback / suggestions forward to the appropriate Team, or on to Bluehole.
Do you want a comment within each Thread, just saying " This has been passed along, Thanks ! " ?

They aren't asking you to ask Bluehole about it. Do the stuff you can do right now. Hold events that give more of these items. Do some of the stuff that Gameforge has done themselves. You guys have fallen from grace super hard, I'm surprised you don't look at Gameforge more often for wisdom...

Except we don't have a free employee to sit there, study TERA's coding, and build completely unique content, which is what Gameforge does.

Please educate yourself before you fool yourself.

So [filtered] hire one. How is that a hard concept? Do they want TERA to die? No? Put more effort into actually making it not die, then.

Think about the inner-office politics. "The Bluehole family of companies" already has a team developing TERA features and "responsible for not making TERA die"; that team is in Korea. EME can't be like "we think your team in Korea isn't doing a good enough job, so we're going to hire our own people to do the things you won't." That's insubordination and they'd just be fired and replaced with other people who will color within the lines. That's the difference between being a sister company (EME) and being a licensee (Gameforge).

So basically, the progression in this game is the way it is because that's the way BHS wants it, and EME can't do anything to undermine that unless BHS gives the okay. And if this decision ends up destroying the game in this market, I'm sure that EME will have mountains of documented evidence of customer feedback to prove to BHS that they have no one to blame but themselves.

Meantime, keep providing constructive feedback they can forward. That's literally all we can do. Angry rants won't do anything to help the people who are literally forbidden from acting, and won't be able to be forwarded to the bosses.
Naru2008 wrote: »
[You have to take into consideration anything they change on their current build gets completely overwritten when a new patch is sent out, and therefor they have to re-add it. This could cause conflicts with the new coding changes Korea sends out, and they need to troubleshoot everything to make sure it's added back correctly, and working correctly.

Fake news. If your assertion was true we wouldn't get KTera glitches (think RMHM fiasco, or Ninja being broken for months.)

They don't bug test. They just send it.

FWIW, they don't bug-test the game of TERA; BHS is responsible for doing that. They bug-test the integration of TERA with their backend systems, local market variations, and localization. They also generally try to verify that the change log they get from BHS reflects what's in the build. So no, if there's a bug in K-TERA and BHS didn't fix it, EME's job isn't to test the whole game and try to find it. BHS is supposed to do that centrally for all regions around the world.


In the end, I don't think the big problem here (to the thread in general) is about EME not delivering our feedback to BHS. It's that we're just one market of many, and unless all the other global markets (and BHS themselves) agree with the suggestion, it won't happen. It's decision by committee, and our region just has one vote.
There is no way you can take something from (example) 2003 and then slap a full price sticker on it and expect it to sell. This is 2018.
Well, obviously they'll see when they look at the sales. If it's not reaching their projections, clearly they'll do something else.

But this particular outfit is a bit of a special case because it's so rare. It wasn't something that was just sitting on the store for years, even in a lootbox or anything else. (It was only in a lootbox once rarely, and then available in an event.) So it wouldn't surprise me if, for this item in particular, the price was more worth it to people than it would be for other items. Certainly, not just any old rare will sell well at 4995 EMP.
TomRipley wrote: »
Imho all you're asking sonic to do is waste time and effort. I mean, given that all the relevant data is located on an SSD xigncode trashed, they'd either have to spend money to hire someone to try and retrieve said data from the broken device, or at the very least send in the SSD to Wellbia (since EME has stated before that technical issues are solved by them), which probably is quite costly as well, in case you forgot: they are located in Korea.

You didn't actually pay attention at all to what he said. He's having the same crash now on his new SSD (though it has not trashed the new drive). So whatever caused the crash in the first place was not the SSD itself, but something unique to the computer. That's what needs to be troubleshooted.
TomRipley wrote: »
I've removed the game from my system, after losing my SSD, replacing it( and getting two this time to separate my OS so i wouldn't have to reinstall windows a again) It keep crashing during the same spot of xigncode loading that borked my first ssd. I'm done. I'm out. EME and BHS won't get another cent from me until this hot garbage is removed. Ive got a mountain of other games and hobbies so it won't be hard. See you guys later. I'll keep an eye out from time to time but ultimately I'm disgusted with EME/BHS and am quite leery of trying anything from the in the future.
I realize you're "done" after what happened, but the most useful thing so that there's documented evidence of this problem happening (and exactly what caused it) would be if you could submit your diagnostic details to EME in a ticket, including your XIGNCODE log. Regardless of whether it results in them removing the tool or not, these bugs should be fixed.

There's a certain irony to be found here, proposing they should help out a company that in turn refuses to properly communicate with us about this whole issue. I mean, sonic has written about this several times. If EME would be interested in fixing this stuff, they could've simply asked for details themselves.

Who gives two [filtered] about the company. Help other people that could similarly see something bad happen to their SSD.

Not possible to patch xigncode in a way that stops it from damaging older SSD's without also patching out it's ability to cause blue screens, which couldn't possibly make it less effective than the 0% success rate it already has, but would stop it from ostensibly detecting certain hooks.

Given that it's crashing with the new SSD, it suggests there's something else going on than just "a normal file scan could kill an old SSD that was already on the edge." Perhaps incompatibility with a certain motherboard or drive controller? Anyway, that in particular could probably be solved without undermining the (still ineffective anyway) software's design.
SageWindu wrote: »
Hell, I remember the joy was so profound that it made people forgive and forget EME's previous transgressions up to that point.
Oh, now that is definitely not true. This community never forgives, and never forgets. lol

Seriously, though, in that case the lootboxes were also only 95 EMP. I suspect they knew the outfit wasn't going to be that popular no matter what, so they were trying to see if a lower price point would help at all. I guess it didn't help...
TomRipley wrote: »
I've removed the game from my system, after losing my SSD, replacing it( and getting two this time to separate my OS so i wouldn't have to reinstall windows a again) It keep crashing during the same spot of xigncode loading that borked my first ssd. I'm done. I'm out. EME and BHS won't get another cent from me until this hot garbage is removed. Ive got a mountain of other games and hobbies so it won't be hard. See you guys later. I'll keep an eye out from time to time but ultimately I'm disgusted with EME/BHS and am quite leery of trying anything from the in the future.
I realize you're "done" after what happened, but the most useful thing so that there's documented evidence of this problem happening (and exactly what caused it) would be if you could submit your diagnostic details to EME in a ticket, including your XIGNCODE log. Regardless of whether it results in them removing the tool or not, these bugs should be fixed.

There's a certain irony to be found here, proposing they should help out a company that in turn refuses to properly communicate with us about this whole issue. I mean, sonic has written about this several times. If EME would be interested in fixing this stuff, they could've simply asked for details themselves.

Who gives two [filtered] about the company. Help other people that could similarly see something bad happen to their SSD.
I've removed the game from my system, after losing my SSD, replacing it( and getting two this time to separate my OS so i wouldn't have to reinstall windows a again) It keep crashing during the same spot of xigncode loading that borked my first ssd. I'm done. I'm out. EME and BHS won't get another cent from me until this hot garbage is removed. Ive got a mountain of other games and hobbies so it won't be hard. See you guys later. I'll keep an eye out from time to time but ultimately I'm disgusted with EME/BHS and am quite leery of trying anything from the in the future.
I realize you're "done" after what happened, but the most useful thing so that there's documented evidence of this problem happening (and exactly what caused it) would be if you could submit your diagnostic details to EME in a ticket, including your XIGNCODE log. Regardless of whether it results in them removing the tool or not, these bugs should be fixed.
I knew we had discussed this before...
TWMagimay wrote: »
PS: Why not both though? Is there a special reason it has to be either lootboxes or bundles/direct sale? Y'all are arguing like these things can't coexist....
[...]
Time-limited bundles are one thing, but if the whole store were constantly filled with high-priced premium cosmetics, it might scare away new customers with sticker shock, even though the option to buy lootboxes and take their chances exists. The high price only makes sense when you already understand what you're comparing it to (lootboxes).

If they had just kept the rare versions behind lootboxes only, even if the rare were as expensive or more on average, no one would have complained about the "high price" because it's hidden. I'm not trying to say that 4995 is a good or fair price for a weapon skin at all (I'm not buying), but it just goes to show why companies like EME have relied on lootboxes for so long.
BOBBYYYY wrote: »
They never said it on the forums so its not "official" right?

Saying it on Discord is no less official than here (it's the Official EME Discord after all), though of course it's important to note exactly what was said: that they have no intention of scheduling anymore jackpot events. If, at some point in the future, all the staff change again and new people come in that decide they do want to do it, it could happen. But betting on that is certainly a big gamble; you're waiting indefinitely for something that may never change.
There is a surprising population drop off since they introduced the XIGNCODE rootkit.

Honestly, if you look on the same report at the same one-month period in 2017, you'll see the same pattern of a drop-off in June. As the summer months hit, TERA's population drops (presumably because people are done school and/or are enjoying the summer). I'm not saying that nobody left the game because of this, of course -- we see some of them in this very thread -- but you can't use these statistics and draw that kind of conclusion. Based on years past, you'll continue to see lower numbers during the summer months, with traffic picking up again in September.

Again, this is not trying to justify or excuse the use of this ineffective tool.
Zoknahal wrote: »
Why EME doesnt take the chance? Because of fear it would hurt their sales? like, they already wiped out more than half of the shop, and placed it into the daily deals thing. This would just add more money to them.

First of all, this seemingly-trivial thing you're asking them to program really isn't all that trivial; it'd be a major project to get this implemented properly and suitably debugged to avoid all the problems you could cause. As it's not a core feature of TERA programmed by BHS, it's also sensitive to any potential changes BHS may make to the database going forward that could break it. (If BHS keeps adding other costumes with related skills too, like the mecha costume, it's possible there could be cascading consequences to those too.)

But second of all, think about the grand scheme of what they're trying to do with the changes they've made to the cash shop. It's no different than with seasonal items. In addition to the regular arrival of new players, this game is regularly encouraging people to make more characters, and they know that when people make new characters, there will be some old/retired/seasonal costumes they want to get. This artificial scarcity is filled by a) players who purchased extra copies in advance with the goal of either using them for an alt or selling them, b) players who get it via TERA Emporium (where applicable), and c) whenever they reintroduce it to the game (whether via Daily Deals or when it's back in-season). This all encourages people to "get them while they're hot." If people can just buy one and keep trading with their alts for a fee, it deflates all three fronts to some degree (there's less a reason to buy extras, there's less value to the Emporium, and there's less demand when they're reintroduced). So you're basically betting on two factors: 1) the extra revenue from costume transfers will make up for the lesser demand, and 2) the very fact people have the option to transfer will increase cosmetic sales. These two factors have to result in increased revenue since you also have to cover the development cost to build and maintain this tool. That alone is an tough hill to climb as far as arguments go, but you also have to deal with the fact that (as with costume changes during race transfers) no other publisher is doing this and they're perfectly happy just to sell the costumes if people want them on their alt (and to create that added demand whenever they want to reintroduce them). All the momentum is on "do nothing," since there are plenty of other problems on their web team's agenda to solve that will be seen as "less risky."

Don't get me wrong, I'm neither against the idea nor trying to claim the cash shop strategy is wonderful. But the issue is a bit more complicated than you make it sound.
MistyTera wrote: »
MistyTera wrote: »
I'm surprised that they are ignoring, when simply XIGNCODE was proven to cause BSODs.

EVEN A BSODs should be enough to notify that this ANTI-HACK tool is garbage!
Look, any driver can cause a BSOD. I troubleshooted a BSOD on my machine that was caused by an old version of VPN software that installed a network driver that didn't uninstall properly. I troubleshooted a BSOD that was caused by a controller driver, even when the controller wasn't plugged in at all. I troubleshooted BSODs caused by incompatibilities introduced by Microsoft themselves in new Windows updates that required them to release another update to fix the first update they broke. Not to mention BSODs caused routinely by video card drivers, audio drivers, network drivers, and on and on. At least we're no longer living in the Windows ME days when you'd get a BSOD basically all the time because things were just that unstable.

Respectfully, your whole thing about "oh no it causes a BSOD!" is another piece of fear-mongering paranoia that won't be taken seriously, even though XIGNCODE is not fit for purpose.

BUT IT WAS LINKED TO WELLBIA/XIGNCODE FILES IN THE BSOD! OMG! Counterpoint, where is your head?

No kidding. XIGNCODE (at least the old version) installs a system driver. When a system driver has some sort of problem, it can result in a BSOD, just like any other system driver that has some sort of conflict or problem. All you're saying is that, in at least one or more circumstances, the driver has triggered a kernel panic. But there's in no way enough information to know the actual root cause, and what chain of events caused the panic. The fact that XIGNCODE files are in the BSOD just mean that, yes, in fact, it's a system driver.

I've said forever that the software is not fit for purpose because it's clearly ineffectual, but these arguments are just not going to work.
MistyTera wrote: »
I'm surprised that they are ignoring, when simply XIGNCODE was proven to cause BSODs.

EVEN A BSODs should be enough to notify that this ANTI-HACK tool is garbage!
Look, any driver can cause a BSOD. I troubleshooted a BSOD on my machine that was caused by an old version of VPN software that installed a network driver that didn't uninstall properly. I troubleshooted a BSOD that was caused by a controller driver, even when the controller wasn't plugged in at all. I troubleshooted BSODs caused by incompatibilities introduced by Microsoft themselves in new Windows updates that required them to release another update to fix the first update they broke. Not to mention BSODs caused routinely by video card drivers, audio drivers, network drivers, and on and on. At least we're no longer living in the Windows ME days when you'd get a BSOD basically all the time because things were just that unstable.

Respectfully, your whole thing about "oh no it causes a BSOD!" is another piece of fear-mongering paranoia that won't be taken seriously, even though XIGNCODE is not fit for purpose.
MistyTera wrote: »
XIGNCODE hates....AND A GM MENTIONED IT!

No, it doesn't. They're just listing off a long list of things that could possibly (but not necessarily) cause conflicts in an attempt to isolate possible causes.

I use at least a third of the items listed on that list and have played BnS, BDO, and TERA that all use XIGNCODE with no problem.

You're just spreading ill-informed paranoia, and it is causing this thread to be taken less seriously than it ought to be by the powers that be. This kind of fear-mongering will not, in any way, increase the chances that EME change their minds.
S2ElinS2 wrote: »
voidy wrote: »
I'd like to believe you on this, but since neither of us have the lootbox rates there's really no way to say for sure how EME arrived at their price point. The Koreans are required to publish the rates for kTera, and surprise surprise they're really small, but for all I know those values could be changed for better (lol) or worse when they arrive in North America. :shrug:

I've been pushing for them to publish the rates (and implement failure caps) forever, and will keep asking for it. But for now, I can only base it on my own cumulative experience opening boxes in this game, the data of others I know who opened many boxes who shared their success rates in-game and in various threads over the years, and the price ratio of direct-buy vs. rare on the broker after they're given time to settle properly over the years (particularly in years past when there was a bigger market for rares). I can at least say that it's a rare box indeed if the rate is more than 3%. Assuming the rate for these boxes is 3%, you'd have to open 23 boxes to have a 50% chance, and 46 boxes to have a 75% chance. So the average spend to get a lootbox rare at that rate will be around $45 to $50 (with of course some people spending way more than that, and others spending less). I strongly suspect this is why the general reaction in this thread was that the price made sense in comparison to the lootbox alternative, even though it is unquestionably high in the grand scheme of things.

(I want to be clear here that, for me too, I don't want the weapon skin enough to justify paying that price either, so will probably not buy until it goes on sale at whatever point. But just talking here about the expected price/value of a rare in this TERA market, for better or worse.)

The chance to get the 2.0 mounts and dyeables and most of the rare itens is 0.1 % . You can check the odds in the Korea Tera > http://iteminfo.nexon.com/probability/tera?sn=478. 3% lol.

We don't have the same lootboxes as K-TERA at all -- each region is entirely different. There's no evidence at all to suggest that our region's rates are anything as low as 0.1%, or the broker prices you'd see for rares would be astronomically higher than they already are (outside of seasonal/retired items).

That being said, if the rates were in fact that low for rares, then the $50 buy-out price would be a steal.
MistyTera wrote: »
Ok, I'm laughing really hard! GOOGLE KNOWS WELLBIA/XIGNCODE IS MALWARE!

https://image.ibb.co/jXmtny/Even_google_knows_XIGNCODE_is_bad.png

If you looked one step deeper, you'd see the "unauthenticated source" it's trying to load is... a Google Font. It's a rookie mistake, sure, but the same thing was happening on these very forums for many months until they finally fixed it. This has absolutely, literally, nothing to do with malware at all.
MissKo wrote: »
All we can do now is hope that they fix up XIGNCODE well enough that people like me can return feeling content. As I said before in the forums, I'm terrified of having my computer bricked as there's someone else who has had this issue running on an SSD. If they can figure out how to make it play nice for us SSD users, and make it so there's not a crazy strain on us, I'll gladly return to the game.

I'm not very sure how anyone can reassure you that an extremely uncommon event is unlikely to happen. I mean, many people could tell you that they've played games with XIGNCODE on their SSDs for years now and never had any problem (whether it's a good/useful program notwithstanding). The same program was also installed on tens of millions of computers with PUBG last year, and there wasn't an epidemic of dying SSDs by any means. Even in the case we have here, if a simple file scan of the SSD was enough to brick the drive, chances are there was already something very wrong anyway, and anything else (like an anti-virus scanner, anti-malware scanner, or even just accessing files) could have broken it in the same way. This program isn't any more "straining" than anything else that would scan recently accessed files on your computer.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say or imply that you should be okay with the software or like it, for reasons discussed ad nauseum in this thread. But if you're literally waiting for a "fix" that reassures you that it won't brick your computer... there's already nothing about it that makes it particularly likely to do so in the first place. I don't expect there'll be any fix or change that makes it less likely to do what it's already very unlikely to do.
voidy wrote: »
I'd like to believe you on this, but since neither of us have the lootbox rates there's really no way to say for sure how EME arrived at their price point. The Koreans are required to publish the rates for kTera, and surprise surprise they're really small, but for all I know those values could be changed for better (lol) or worse when they arrive in North America. :shrug:

I've been pushing for them to publish the rates (and implement failure caps) forever, and will keep asking for it. But for now, I can only base it on my own cumulative experience opening boxes in this game, the data of others I know who opened many boxes who shared their success rates in-game and in various threads over the years, and the price ratio of direct-buy vs. rare on the broker after they're given time to settle properly over the years (particularly in years past when there was a bigger market for rares). I can at least say that it's a rare box indeed if the rate is more than 3%. Assuming the rate for these boxes is 3%, you'd have to open 23 boxes to have a 50% chance, and 46 boxes to have a 75% chance. So the average spend to get a lootbox rare will be around $45 to $50 (with of course some people spending way more than that, and other spending less).
ReChoa wrote: »
Having the choice to just buy it is nice, but 50 [filtered] dollars is way too much for JUST a W E A P O N skin, shilling this hard for a $50 weapon skin is honestly pathetic. You can just straight up buy DYEABLE outfits for cheaper than this [filtered] on EU.

Just to be clear, it's not like all items that are rare here are direct buy or cheap on EU. It's just different. Some items that are rare here are cheap there. Some items that were direct buy here were very rare there. They also have different kinds of lootboxes too, which sometimes included temporary items in addition to permanent. So if you're going to do an apples-to-apples comparison, it's not that simple.

voidy wrote: »
I think we can say "great job, thanks for listening to feedback" on the one hand and still be like "50 dollars for a weapon skin is [filtered] insane and I'm under no obligation to purchase it just to 'show my support'" on the other.
I don't think anyone should buy to "show support." But I think people at least need to realize that this isn't an increase in price for rares or anything. It's a reflection that rares have always been really expensive in this market, and maybe some people just didn't realize it before because it was "hidden."
Yeah it’s great there’s a buyout option. But it way over priced you can easily get a triple A game on steam for the same price.

A top selling game or a weapon skin hmmm.

But this is basically justifying to them why they have lootboxes in the first place, though. The average person was already paying this much or more (potentially much more) to get the rare if they went the lootbox route, except they were doing it ~$1.50 at a time, so it didn't look like "a triple A game price." But probably no one would say how "over priced" it was because the true price is hidden behind RNG (they'd just complain about the RNG instead). Now that the price is out in the open, people notice how expensive rares are, but they've basically always been this expensive. (I'm not trying to say the price is good at all, but be careful what you wish for. If too many people complain about the "high price," I assume they'll just go back to only having RNG boxes so "no one realizes it.")
Enmasse you re going to do SOMETHING about the fking FPS drops or not?
Please, say a fkin word about it, i dont want to lose more time if not.
Unfortunately, for this particular issue, all the other regions got the same bug K-TERA had. It should be fixed in the next patch. Not by any means saying that makes up for all the other issues at all.

The really stupid part is, XIGNCODE is a fundamentally flawed concept.
The only realistic way to combat client side cheating is to do it at the hardware level like a video game console and have everything run in a white list only mode.
The only problem with this argument (although not entirely wrong) is that it's kind of like saying "multiplayer PC gaming is a fundamentally flawed concept." Maybe it's not wrong, but...
MistyTera wrote: »
Oh here's a thought, why not just have the anti-hack program block cheats by server function, rather than having it on our computers? Is that even possible? Because we all are connected to server.

Obviously they should do this as the primary anti-cheat mechanism, and there is a lot of improvement that needs to be made in this area. (I won't say they've done nothing in this area, but it's clearly not enough.) However, catching everything on the server-side is difficult and could cause a lot of server-side overhead. Ideally you'd want to address the most egregious issues server-side, but still have some means to prevent client-side manipulation as well.
Pages wrote: »
SageWindu wrote: »
I concur with @ElinUsagi . The buyout option is nice but I still find the price to be a pretty tall order.

I'd do 3495 or even 3995 (actual on-hand funds notwithstanding). 4995EMP makes me hesitant.

Observation: I guess there's always the broker, now that I think about it.

While I agree that the price seems really high ($45 for a weapon skin) I think idea is that the price is supposed to coincide with the lootbox rates. 3495/150 = 23.3 boxes whereas 4995/150 = 33.3 boxes.

At the end of the day they're trying to encourage people to gamble with loot boxes by making the loot boxes a more "enticing" offer. If they made the buyout price too low, people would have no incentive to gamble.

Yeah, although we don't have hard data for these particular boxes, my general rule of thumb is that the rate for rares (when there's only one rare in a box) is somewhere around 3% anyway, so this price would be right around the average. But even if it were slightly above the average, it would make some sense given that you're trading RNG for a sure-bet.

(For example, if the game had an enchanting option that allowed you to pay a flat gold/material price to guarantee enchanting success, you can bet that it'd be at or slightly more expensive than the average you'd be expected to spend if you went the RNG route. The difference is just the guarantee of success.)
Norafin wrote: »
This I think they should do. Could add a "Report as Spam" feature in the menu that automatically sends all the needed info for review. Could possibly even have it where a certain number of reports results in automatic-muting, but have to watch for abuse potential here too.
Must have at least 10 reports for a temporary mute. Mute lasts a day or until the player gets unmuted by support.
Does not work in battlegrounds, instances or on players in the same raid/who have been in your raid in the last hour

My concern is that, let's say you have a guild trying to grief another guild; getting 10 reports wouldn't be that hard. So the punishment for wrongful reporting would also have to be harsh.
CGWHXE93RA wrote: »
CGWHXE93RA wrote: »
This is one of the problems with a free to play game. [...]

FWIW, even that won't help. Even subscription games have problems with bots (perhaps even larger problems in some cases). If you make them pay money, they just use stolen credit cards to spin the accounts around, because it's not like they care about eventually getting banned by the time the chargeback comes through.

And yeah, even having an in-game feature to directly "buy gold" doesn't help either; other MMOs with that also have bots. Some people are apparently so conditioned to seek out these scammers that they do it regardless of perfectly allowed in-game mechanics.

I disagree. It may not completely remove the spam but would introduce a significant hurdle to spamming.

Unfortunately, because they use stolen cards, it's not a hurdle at all. I play another rather-well-known subscription MMO that has restrictions on trial accounts and only paid accounts can spam chat... and they've been fighting a major gold seller spam problem for years. It's sad, but it doesn't work.

CGWHXE93RA wrote: »
How about adding a wait period? I'd pay $10 and wait a week to not have to see all that spam. Heck, I'd pay $50 and wait a month.

Won't work either because they'll just have an army of bots in waiting for however long it takes. And besides, preventing new players from chatting entirely for a week/month has a pretty drastic impact on their ability to get help when they're new, so it's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

CGWHXE93RA wrote: »
Another enhancement could be a flagging feature that is automated as opposed to requiring screenshots.

This I think they should do. Could add a "Report as Spam" feature in the menu that automatically sends all the needed info for review. Could possibly even have it where a certain number of reports results in automatic-muting, but have to watch for abuse potential here too.

CGWHXE93RA wrote: »
How about notices in game that gold selling/buying is a bannable offense? If you're caught buying gold (i.e. receiving gold from a gold seller's account), your account will be banned, no recourse, no exceptions.

I personally agree with this as well. I think it should be very visible and clear that any purchases from third-party gold selling sites will result in permanent banning of all your accounts across all EME games, and that should be aggressively enforced until the word finally gets out that it's a death wish to try it.

The above is the reason why (but also why I've been a bit fearful of the "sticker shock" problem with posting high-cost rares for direct-buy). If you'd rather take your chances with the lootbox, it's still there as an option. The 4995 is basically the "buy out" price if you don't want to take any chances.
CGWHXE93RA wrote: »
This is one of the problems with a free to play game. [...]

FWIW, even that won't help. Even subscription games have problems with bots (perhaps even larger problems in some cases). If you make them pay money, they just use stolen credit cards to spin the accounts around, because it's not like they care about eventually getting banned by the time the chargeback comes through.

And yeah, even having an in-game feature to directly "buy gold" doesn't help either; other MMOs with that also have bots. Some people are apparently so conditioned to seek out these scammers that they do it regardless of perfectly allowed in-game mechanics.
could there possibly be a way for eme to file a complaint with the fcc against these websites that the gold scammers are using and have them shut down? would that put a huge decrease in the scammers or are they using different websites? I guess even if they used different websites, maybe eme could file a complaint against all of them and possibly have them shut down due to them breaking the law.

It's impossible because these aren't reputable law-abiding companies to begin with, and the only people with the authority to shut down websites on a global scale aren't going to do it for this form of "minor crime." Even if you did shut down one website, they'll just pop-up another one instantly, and their bot army will start spreading the new URL. You'd have to arrest the masterminds, but I assume there are plenty of unscrupulous people who will take their place.

My hope would be for better reporting and blocking tools that are easier to use and bypass the limits of block lists, but it's not really a fix at all.
I can tell you they are exceedingly aware of this problem. (We are sending them lists of spammers every day now.)

The main problem here is that the bots got smarter, and the old techniques that kept the game bot-free from years ago (like country bans, IP reputation checks, level restrictions on chat channels, etc.) no longer work. Whack-a-mole doesn't work either, because they just pop up as fast as they're killed. Text filters don't work because they change the text slightly as soon as it's implemented.

It's obvious that no one likes games filled with chat spam, but I'm honestly not sure how to solve this problem (other than if people would just stop buying from them, but clearly that's hopeless considering how pervasive they are across all MMOs I've played).
i noticed that there was no mention of account bound mounts from staff for daily deals.
That said, there have actually been account mounts featured on daily deals so far. This was one of the concerns I brought up when they announced this change. I'd prefer to have one option always listed, but I hope at least they keep regularly featuring one.
Kinoshi wrote: »
Sure, you can get a bunch farming IOD bams after reaching level 65 (got about 3000 now) but for lower level players, they're pretty nice. I made use of 'em as I was leveling.

Well, the way they were priced before on the merchant, lower level players would never have been able to afford them. (I think they were somewhere in the range of 22 Gold each, and this was back before they boosted gold intake.) It's actually always been something basically inaccessible to newer players one way or another. They have been adding them to leveling incentives, though, such as the gunner event going on now. I would like to see them do more things to make them accessible to newer players as well, but a gold merchant probably won't work for that.
In terms of items to add to daily deals, I'd like to see the occasional reintroduction of all retired and seasonal items, including dyeable and/or rare versions of each. For example:

- All past swimwear
- All past Halloween costumes
- All past Christmas costumes
- All past school uniforms
- All past servant uniforms
- All past formal wear
- All past new year's outfits (hauberks, etc.)
- All other retired costumes and weapon skins from 2012-2016

In cases where these items were in lootboxes, I think they should be available for direct purchase at a premium price this time.

These items should only be reintroduced rarely/occasionally since they're rare, but I think it's good to give people another chance to buy them (and buy them outright without RNG).
Kinoshi wrote: »
5WHFWCYAKJ wrote: »
found him... the guy whit firesnapers?.. but i dont see the coupons -_-" i think im missing something... i cant understand what im doing wrong
It's this guy:

47bb333aa2.png

Fashion Coupons have been removed from his inventory recently but ya know, you can buy them with EMP now. Convenient huh?

This was from nearly two years ago now. All the merchants had their contents reverted with the new gear patch. Maybe it could be added again, but it'd have to be at a different price than before now that gold income changed so dramatically. They're still dropping from high-level BAMs, which are getting farmed a lot these days anyway.
RandomElin wrote: »
My understanding is that there was new gear released alongside xigncode. I believe that's the kind of thing that typically does spike the player base.
Not really anymore, because it's just appended to the end of the existing gear process. It's not like the old days where new gear meant a major change. This is just another "stretch goal" for people who are already at the top, and a new high-end dungeon to go with it. In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor update.
RandomElin wrote: »
Regardless, though, the reports are that there has been a noticeable drop in players in game. We are not just talking about a few players leaving. For the drop to be noticeable in game, it would have to be a significant drop. Hate to break this to you, but that potential exodus isn't so potential anymore. Don't know if the exodus is ongoing or not, though.
Again, the problem is that -- even if this anecdotal evidence were supported by real data -- correlation isn't causation. People's perception of population is influenced by a lot of factors, again not least of which is that we just got off a month of events that made the world seem more populated, and now things are "back to normal."
RandomElin wrote: »
I am not saying that the exodus is going to kill TERA NA. There is a possibility it could, though.
TERA isn't so very special that this software, implemented in plenty of other games and so easily bypassable, is going to kill it. If anything kills it, it'll be BHS's inability to push compelling updates that convince people to come back and keep playing over the long term. Keeping or removing this ineffective software is the least of the problems.
RandomElin wrote: »
I would also like to remind people that at the time of the xigncode addition, there would have normally been a player base spike due to new content.

Not all updates cause player spikes. If it was a new class or some major addition, then sure, but this is a minor update on what is now a monthly cycle, coming right off a month of events, at the beginning of summer break. I don't think we have any conclusive data at all to support that things would have been any different regardless of this software.

As I mentioned before too, BHS implemented the same software on PUBG last year, which has tens of millions of players, so whatever drama/fallout/issues/etc. we have here is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what they've already gone through there. EME handled the customer support for PUBG during that transition. So that's why I suspect this fatalistic "major fallout" or "potential exodus" argument isn't going to get much traction with the staff.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't issues with the way this all happened or suggesting that the software is useful or fit for purpose, as has already been well-discussed ad nauseum.
Ellexem wrote: »
Please pardon the confusion, but up where?

They added them to the game in an EN patch today.
Equitas wrote: »
I personally feel like they should do an unannounced name wipe for characters that haven't logged on in a year or more. I think that's a fair cutoff point to assume people are no longer interested in their character, or this game. I also suggest an unannounced reset of the names of characters who have 15 minutes or more of play time, and have yet to get past level 5. Given that you could easily reach level 5 in half that time, I'd say it's fair. I say these should be unannounced because telling people in advance does nothing. If people do log in again, they will only do so just to sit on the name. They won't play again.

Couldn't disagree more with this part. F2P MMOs have people coming back after long breaks all the time and getting back into the game. Having people come back to "while you were out, we decided you didn't care and released all your names, and we did it without telling you to make sure you couldn't keep them" is a horrible "welcome back" experience. Thankfully, I know they won't do this.

Equitas wrote: »
I also believe EME should put an end to name selling.
This, on the other hand, I tend to agree with. I would support that, whenever a character is deleted or renamed, their original name is put on a "hold" for a random period of time (of at least a week). During that random period, only the original account holder can create another character with the same name, but it's not accessible to new characters or via name change vouchers. (In K-TERA they half-way did this, but made it so that it was still accessible via name change vouchers, so it basically was a "name seller's tax".)

I did have someone argue pretty vehemently with me against this at one point, arguing that first-come-first-serve and the free market was the fairest way of addressing any limited commodity like names (so, why shouldn't name selling be okay? is a random release truly more fair?). I still can't really agree with them about that, but I will say it was an interesting discussion with valid points.
Catservant wrote: »
Easier to make rewards better than to walk something back when you've been too generous, I guess.

This is definitely always the case, as we've noticed with EME repeatedly over the years. They'd always rather start small, see how fast people earn stuff, and then add/increase. As you say, it's much easier to add than to take away.

It probably can be sweetened, but as with the BG token, it's important to keep in mind that these are bonuses on top of vanguard and other existing rewards, and they won't add things here that fundamentally undermine BHS's progression flow (no matter how much I/we disagree with BHS on this). So, sadly, people are hoping for this to fully fix the game's progression problems... they'll never go that far with it. But I'm sure it can be tweaked and improved.
Christin wrote: »
PUBG isn't supported by EME, so you have that backwards. EME is supported/directed by BHS and that's it.

FWIW, I meant that, literally, EME's team provides the customer support for PUBG. That's why it made sense in the context I was replying to (contacting customer support related to an issue with XIGNCODE3 in GeForce Now). That's all.
Christin wrote: »
Mogly wrote: »
They wont get Xing, as it directly conflicts with European general law.
As explained in another thread, it doesn't necessarily conflict with the law. There are a number of games in EU (like Black Desert, Blade and Soul, EME's Closers, etc.) that do use that program. Gameforge may still decide not to go that path, of course.

All Korean based games that don't need to follow European law. Sure, they may update their terms to add in a bunch of garbage, but they don't have to follow any of it. You're just being ignorant and silly and pointing to stuff that you know can be ignored.
Uhh, I'm talking about the EU-published versions of those games, and they absolutely need to comply with EU law. EME also needs to comply with EU law as long as they offer products to EU natural persons (which they certainly do with games like Closers). It's absolutely applicable. That's why Gravity Interactive, who also publishes Korean games, completely pulled out of EU last month (in fear that they couldn't comply with GDPR). They wouldn't have done that if "they don't have to follow any of it." Pretending they don't have to comply with the law just because they're "Korean based games" would definitely make it illegal in the EU.

Christin wrote: »
Laemie wrote: »
So shes playing Tera on a Mac and shes using nvidia geforce cloud thingy to play. With this Xigncode, its not allowed anymore and she can nolonger play. Any of you using the same thing and having any solutions?

I recommend she contact EME in a ticket about this situation. This is something they may have to work with Nvidia to solve, but it's something they clearly have done before since PUBG is working there. Likely either EME or Nvidia has to change some options on their end to make this work again.

Why even give people hope and tell them to contact support? Do you think support is going to suddenly change the code to allow this cloud? Give it up already.
They certainly have proven they can. PUBG is also made by BHS, supported by EME, uses XIGNCODE3, and is one of the featured games on GeForce Now (the very cloud service that's being referred to). So... yes? It's certainly at least worth asking.
Mogly wrote: »
They wont get Xing, as it directly conflicts with European general law.
As explained in another thread, it doesn't necessarily conflict with the law. There are a number of games in EU (like Black Desert, Blade and Soul, EME's Closers, etc.) that do use that program. Gameforge may still decide not to go that path, of course.
Xerses wrote: »
Had this really long response written out comparing Wellbia to other anti cheat programs like Battleye and how they all send files from your IP to a master server and permanently store them and how social engineering is involved both positively and negatively. I did research on how everything works with these anti cheat programs and how bad it potentially can affect your pc and had all these screenshots and links ready to post. I had screenshots and links to errors of xigncode, had links of how easily it's "bypassed" and how useless it is. I did research on how other games are manipulated and what those companies do to combat cheating and compared those major companies like Blizzard and blah blah blah. But who cares, what's done is done.
Out of a desire to have a constructive debate/discussion on this topic... If you actually did all this work, please just post it and open it up to scrutiny, rather than insinuating all this scary stuff ("send your files to a master server permanently!", "social engineering!", "bad consequences to your pc!") and then saying "I have all this carefully-researched evidence, but I'm not going to tell you because it doesn't matter." If any of those things were actually as true as you imply, it matters a lot to everyone who plays TERA (and the tens of millions that play other games that use this same tool). Regardless of whatever impact this has on EME's decision for TERA, these threads will obviously be indexed by search engines, and others can use your research to further the conversation, and perhaps influence other companies.

I am obviously skeptical of these insinuations because of how widely tools like this are used and the major consequences if any of these "facts" came to light. But if the evidence is there, and you've already put it together anyway, let's have it.
unfortunately, I don't know enough about how the whole thing works, so I don't know how to give an expert answer, but it definitely looks like EME could just make some servers XIGNCODE required and others not.
Problem is it's not just like "TR is TR" or something. It's a whole bunch of servers that interact, besides just the world server. Whenever you do IMS or Battleground Matching, the different servers are pooled together onto instance servers. You can't let those interact, so you have to basically segregate it all.

But besides, anyway, as I've pointed out before, they forced all of PUBG to use this and everyone on all their other games, plus most other regions of TERA. I can all but guarantee there's nothing we could ever do or say that would convince them it's worth setting up two sets of servers with different settings for this. They won't see us as that special that we can't "just deal" like everyone else, for better or worse.
voidy wrote: »
I'm already pissed because even though my PC is a beast and runs decently no matter what, I've already had runs where I've wasted tons of consumables waiting around while we wiped and wiped and wiped and then waited while people relogged and relogged and relogged because their games were performing like shite after every boss, and all after this update. If you want to say that's a coincidence, fine, but come on.

It's not a coincidence, but it's actually an unrelated (but equally stupid/frustrating) reason. The equivalent patch in K-TERA had the same performance bug with dungeons, and it was patched in a later K-TERA patch. As often happens, when they gave us this build, they gave us the same bug without backporting the fix. Which is frustrating as hell, but as it turns out, is for a different (arguably more stupid) reason.
The specific suggestion, FWIW, won't work because maintaining two separate clients isn't really going to be sustainable for them, and would increase complexity and support for patching issues and the like. Besides, these servers would have to be in a different IMS region than the rest so they don't interface with each other, which would both sides of the split worse off in terms of queue times, etc. If by chance they were going to remove, it'd be for everyone.
Laemie wrote: »
So shes playing Tera on a Mac and shes using nvidia geforce cloud thingy to play. With this Xigncode, its not allowed anymore and she can nolonger play. Any of you using the same thing and having any solutions?

I recommend she contact EME in a ticket about this situation. This is something they may have to work with Nvidia to solve, but it's something they clearly have done before since PUBG is working there. Likely either EME or Nvidia has to change some options on their end to make this work again.
voidy wrote: »
How many times, and across how many games, does xign have to fail before we can just stop pretending there's a possibility for it to be good if the publisher/developer "tries harder"? And now players are going to waste time submitting videos and photographic evidence to prove what anyone who plays korean mmos has known for years: that xign is a total waste of a publisher's money.

Again, for the sake of the argument, if it's so true that 1) the software is so laughably trivial to bypass (and "everybody's doing it"), and 2) that it's completely ineffectual and (by design) can't possibly negatively impact anything "evil" any player might want to do anyway, then it raises the question: what are people so mad about? Amidst all this, I think that's the point that has to resonate clearly with EME. If it's only "people shouldn't have to do this to play the game" and "it's a stupid decision that makes no sense," I don't imagine that'll change much at this point (again, given that they've already done this in all their other games anyway; stupid or not, they're all in now).

Some clear points for me, anyway:
1. This should have been more clearly communicated and sooner than it was. The fact this wasn't done contributed to the fear and uncertainty about the change.
2. Adding this software doesn't in any way absolve BHS of the need to actually solve the exploits in the server code and to fix all the myriad "never trust the client"-related lapses. Without an absolute and promptly-actioned commitment to this, all other efforts will fail.
3. EME needs to take more concerted action to address cheaters, exploiters, and bots via moderation and human intervention, and this software doesn't absolve them of any of that responsibility either.

In general, stupidity of this situation notwithstanding, I know there are at least some people at EME who do actually care about this game and want to make it better (if no one has that goal, there's nothing to discuss), and if they have that a goal, the above kinds of points are important.
I just don't understand how any company could be so dense as to think this is a reasonable course of action.
And again, just for the sake of the discussion (which is my only point here, not trying to "spin" anything -- I've said all along that it's, at best, pointless), I don't think they're "so dense as to think it's reasonable." I think they're just convinced, based on the fact it's on all their other games and in many other TERA regions, that it's not unreasonable as a baseline, checklist feature to have. Clearly, that "non-logic" is not going to convince anyone, but it only had to convince them for it to be implemented. We have a voice, but not a veto.
Is not better pay 3 or 4 progrmmers to make you a custom software?? Unknown for all, and then, not so easy to quit??
I think it will be even chaper than this XC.

For this kind of software, it's probably not because maintaining compatibility with various Windows and other software updates is a giant pain, and doing anything like this in a secure way is really hard. (And for something like anti-cheat software, as we see clearly, you're basically painting a giant target on your back.) There's already enough consternation about how reputable XIGNCODE is (partly because their English presence isn't very good, and they're not known to be effective for this game), but doing it "in-house" is an even higher risk. It's better to pass that risk onto another company who makes that their entire focus and mission (which, for all its flaws, this company does for a very large number of Korean games). At the end of the day, as far as reputation goes, being able to say they were part of the world's biggest videogame of 2017 is not insignificant for them and their reputation (nor for BHS, obviously), but clearly they need more work and focus to accomplish anything useful with TERA.

Your wording here is not quite right in my opinion. For instance you say "Is not known to work for this game" where you mean "is known not to work for this game" small difference, big meaning. Also, it's not really a good thing to say you're the body guard of a guy who has been repeatedly shot. XIGNCODE has proven to be ineffective and buggy on every single game it's been deployed on, so I don't really see how being deployed lots of places is a plus, since it has not worked in any of them.

The only reason for the former wording is because, as I've said before, whether this can be effective depends entirely on how much of a focus they make on fighting this battle. There are ways of implementing this software that, at least, make it much more of a giant pain in the [filtered] for those programming bypasses, and in other games have driven some of the bypasses further underground to delay being caught and stopped. But it really depends on the tenacity and investment of the developers to constantly fight. So far, clearly, BHS has not been that diligent in this matter on any front, such as...
The real solution to the problem of cheating in TERA is to improve the server-side code and make most of the [filtered] cheats people use not possible, as they wouldn't be in a properly coded game.
Well, yeah, obviously. Pretty much everyone has relayed this message to EME ad nauseum. There's no doubt whatsoever that this is really what BHS needs to do above anything else, and this software is at best a tangent in that process.
Is not better pay 3 or 4 progrmmers to make you a custom software?? Unknown for all, and then, not so easy to quit??
I think it will be even chaper than this XC.

For this kind of software, it's probably not because maintaining compatibility with various Windows and other software updates is a giant pain, and doing anything like this in a secure way is really hard. (And for something like anti-cheat software, as we see clearly, you're basically painting a giant target on your back.) There's already enough consternation about how reputable XIGNCODE is (partly because their English presence isn't very good, and they're not known to be effective for this game), but doing it "in-house" is an even higher risk. It's better to pass that risk onto another company who makes that their entire focus and mission (which, for all its flaws, this company does for a very large number of Korean games). At the end of the day, as far as reputation goes, being able to say they were part of the world's biggest videogame of 2017 is not insignificant for them and their reputation (nor for BHS, obviously), but clearly they need more work and focus to accomplish anything useful with TERA.
SageWindu wrote: »
Yabi wrote: »
Wow direct purchase for the loot version is 4995 emp and comes with nothing else :sweat:

Considering the typical odds, it's probably about the average of what you'd have to buy in lootboxes, but you're right: it doesn't come with the consumables or anything you'd get from the lootboxes, but it eliminates the RNG. Still, though, I'd much prefer to have this option for direct buy, so I am happy that they are doing it. I hope they will always do it going forward.

I'm not a fan of the $50USD price tag - I think no item (account-bounds notwithstanding) should cost more than 3495EMP. Even the coveted dragons and flightsuits weren't that much.

Well, the common weapon skin is 1695 EMP. I'm pretty sure the rare dragons and flightsuits would have been way more than that, if they had been for direct sale (because the average spend to get it via lootbox was probably at least $75 for the rare flightsuit, and $100 or more for the dragon). Of course I think the prices are too damn high all around, but I'd still rather have a direct buy option than not. (It's what a lot of people have been clamoring for for a very long time.)
Yabi wrote: »
Wow direct purchase for the loot version is 4995 emp and comes with nothing else :sweat:

Considering the typical odds, it's probably about the average of what you'd have to buy in lootboxes, but you're right: it doesn't come with the consumables or anything you'd get from the lootboxes, but it eliminates the RNG. Still, though, I'd much prefer to have this option for direct buy, so I am happy that they are doing it. I hope they will always do it going forward.
STORM33 wrote: »
That was a quote from MistyTera, and I am glad she mentioned it

FWIW, though, you don't have turn off Windows Defender or other anti-virus software for this to work, and it only flags rather than do anything to any files it finds, so I'm truly not too sure what they mean.

Except that this has absolutely been the case in other games and other security software:

https://old.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/42yy1c/xigncode_error_0xe019101a_bd_kr/

What they mean is they can't log in until they remove or disable their security software. GREAT ANTI CHEAT, RIGHT GUYS? JUST TURN OFF YOUR ANTI VIRUS.

Honestly, that's happened temporarily with TERA itself before, even without this program, because compatibility breaks between some update, and the scanner decides to interact with the program in a different way and one party (or both) needs to fix. Disabling your antivirus is just a temporary workaround until the bug gets fixed for people who absolutely don't want to wait (or who want to help identify the root cause), although it would be better for people to wait for the real fix. This is basically a temporarily exception case, though, not any sort of rule.
STORM33 wrote: »
That was a quote from MistyTera, and I am glad she mentioned it

FWIW, though, you don't have turn off Windows Defender or other anti-virus software for this to work, and it only flags rather than do anything to any files it finds, so I'm truly not too sure what they mean.
There has to be be systems for compliance, ie making sure they are doing what they say they are doing and nothing more. EME can't even give that to their own customers. What makes you think they can give that to the EU governing bodies? Wellbia's website doesn't even clearly say exactly what it does in that broken-google-translated English...

C'mon counterpoint... you're smarter than that.

Secondly, Wellbia's own garbage website says that the user must agree to the terms and conditions of xingcode3 (which thus indemnifies Wellbia from any damages,) and none of NA TERA's players were given that chance. There isn't a pop up notification. There isn't a EULA box to check after you read it. It just installs when TERA updates. The only notice was @seandynamite 's pathetic attempt at telling us all, and then radio silence. They wouldn't have even told us if they didn't do an early server update and it was found out.

That's [filtered] and you know it.

"Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it," that works only in criminal cases. In contracts, especially those pertaining to business, if something isn't disclosed, or is hidden, and hurts one party of the contract that is on the OTHER party in the contract.

I'm just going based on my work of literally reading that law. The points you mentioned are good ideas, and probably what I would have done if it were up to me, but the law doesn't say flat out that that it's required. The way it works is that an EU citizen has to exercise their rights, contest their use of data, and escalate it to the supervisory authority if they don't find the response acceptable. At that point, EME would have to provide all the information needed to the authority (both what's public and the documentation they keep internally), and it'd be up to the authority to decide if what EME did is sufficient or not. I can tell you that nobody is exactly sure right now how they'll decide, or what the impact will be. (Many jurisdictions commented that they weren't even funded and ready to start dealing with this by the time the law was put into effect. It'll be some time until all the dust settles.)
Probably need launcher.log to understand what file/files are blocking it. It could be because a file it needs was locally modified, or because some other program on the computer is blocking it.
Peorth wrote: »
Installing 3rd party spyware without consent or even prior notice is illegal in the EU (which you host the console version of tera btw).

I am not a lawyer, but I had to study this law for my own work, and I think that's too simplistic. It has to be disclosed (which it is at least mentioned in their Privacy Policy) and it has to respect the data subject rights for EU natural persons. There are a bunch of other requirements about notifications if there were any breaches, etc. There are many legal bases for processing, not only consent, so there's nothing in the law that says they must do that. Whether what they've done is sufficient to cover them under GDPR is obviously for lawyers and the EU jurisdictional supervisory authorities to decide; if someone is an EU natural person, they could pursue their rights according to that law. But it's not flat-out illegal according to this law, as far as I can tell.
So, here`s the thing.., i was from Indonesia,
and not secret anymore, that.. so many player from outside America was using certain VPN or proxy program to bypass the region lock,

Since i use VPN program (like HHS or Tunel Bear) to log in the games,
and if.. XIGNCODE3 was implemented in TERA, that means i can not used VPN anymore when i launch TERA launcher? :#

It is not likely to have an impact on VPNs used for this reason. (In other games I've played with this software, it has not disconnected VPNs.) But we'll see how it's configured tomorrow, I guess.
Equitas wrote: »
Christin wrote: »
EME should pay you. No, I mean really. You're working really hard for them seeing as none of them can be bothered to defend this. Yes, I get that you're not trying to defend this but rather educate. However, you've been on this all day doing what EME should be. They should give you a dragon mount or something for your time. Not being sarcastic either.

You are being sarcastic. You don't get to make a passive-aggressive comment that makes you look benevolent. It doesn't work that way. You also don't get to act like he's the only one, when he only bothered to show up after others have done the exact same thing in trying to correct some glaring misconceptions.

What is even going on anymore... I just want people to enjoy playing TERA and/or at least to make well-informed decisions. This off-topic is pointless and I don't want to see this thread closed.
metagame wrote: »
ovr wrote: »
Which is exactly why they will never see the level of success that Blizzard and other companies have.
pubg?????

Whether they can make it last will depend in part on whether they can address the optimization and cheating issues effectively. But yeah, they certainly made a ton of money on that, and that'll probably provide a nest egg for a while. My hope is that some of the lessons they learn about optimization and preventing cheating/exploits will trickle down to TERA, but it's a long shot.
STORM33 wrote: »
Nothing short of a factory reset will get rid of it.
You are completely welcome to your decision. However, just to be clear, it is not deeply embedded at all, because it is not hidden. It's one system driver in the Windows folder, and related references to the driver in the registry, and that's it. It only gets triggered when you start a game that uses it, and does not run on boot.
Equitas wrote: »
Equitas wrote: »
I think the utterly useles TERA Council would be a fantastic place to start.

Just want to be absolutely clear on this point. This information was not discovered as a result of leaks. It was discovered because EME posted the patch in advance to the live/public patch server, in a known location for anyone to find. That's probably their normal process for internal Q&A testing, but this time there was something they should have announced first. There are people in the community who, for their own reasons, want to inspect patch files before they arrive, and so were looking for the new build to drop -- only to discover this.

I'm glad you quoted this, because I didn't realize I had misspelled something. And I know it wasn't leaked as a result of the Council. I just don't see any point for the Council to continue to exist, because they're not useful. They haven't been, aren't, and will never be.

They're (we're) only as useful as EME wants them or lets them be. Recently, we've been allowed to provide more input, which has been considered, and thus been more useful in some areas. But it's up to them to take input and, then, take action. Nevertheless, your comment was in the context of the supposed leak, so antagonism for an unrelated reason is completely off-topic.
Equitas wrote: »
I think the utterly useles TERA Council would be a fantastic place to start.

Just want to be absolutely clear on this point. This information was not discovered as a result of leaks. It was discovered because EME posted the patch in advance to the live/public patch server, in a known location for anyone to find. That's probably their normal process for internal Q&A testing, but this time there was something they should have announced first. There are people in the community who, for their own reasons, want to inspect patch files before they arrive, and so were looking for the new build to drop -- only to discover this.
Just want to remind everyone to use their tokens and convert their letters tonight, before they're wiped out tomorrow.
LagunaZio wrote: »
No they have all the items in game, look at the GPK files, they are all there. no reason to limit Valk/brawler to the same 5 skins... ect

As I found out when all this happened (and I think they also made a comment to this effect at the time on the forum), there's a difference between items that are "in the game files" and ones where there's a localized item available that's unique to them (that it's safe for them to modify). That's what they have to wait for BHS on. I agree that it should not be hard at all for BHS to provide them with these localized items.

I had already prepared a list of all the items that were in the game proper (based on ItemIDs in other regions), so I originally thought like you as well (if it's in the game it's in the game! Well, apparently not quite...).
GKWXJGDXPL wrote: »
Hmm, my attempt at creating a technical thread (and not intended as a petition) about this away from all the fluff in this thread has now been hidden. As a player council member, would you have any suggestions on how to create a more productive technical thread on the aspects of xigncode?

It looks like they decided they just want to have one single thread on this topic, which is not uncommon. (It may also be that they didn't like the "if you agree, like" aspect, for the same reason as before.) I think your post is still useful in this thread; for now I wouldn't try to create any more.
Xerses wrote: »
You and I both know the mods are not going to go through this thread. They removed the dislike feature after the Harmonia fiasco because they cannot take negative criticism. This thread itself has more than enough constructive replies about why we don't want this and all we get is this?

Actually, the mods are looking at this thread, but that doesn't mean they can give a response (since whatever they say will be deemed an official response). I imagine any other official response will be coordinated. And the dislike feature was removed when they switched forum software, since this forum software doesn't even have a dislike feature.

In the end, there's no point in getting into a meta-argument about whether or how they will respond, just to keep posting constructive arguments that further the discussion.

But anyway, FWIW...
Xerses wrote: »
My thread was meant as a way for people to show how much they dislike the recent idea by clicking a button instead of making the mods waste time and go through 30 pages text.
...that's basically exactly what a petition thread is. You just had people click a like button rather than make a reply that said "signed." And volume of likes isn't going to solve anything anyway.
It is true that, even if they did some "inactive name sweep" there's no guarantee that the person holding the name won't login again to fulfill whatever the criteria is to hold onto it. It's basically a blind hope that the person holding the name is gone and won't come back.

As has been said in other threads, given the precedent in this game and the support impact, I think it only makes sense to do something like this if there's some other compelling reason to justify it (like Steam launch and server merges in the past).
Xerses wrote: »
1 Like = 1 Dislike for Xigncode
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Rip negative criticism. I highly doubt the mods are going to take the time to sit here and go through 30+ pages of feedback on why it's wrong to do this. They don't like leaving their safe spaces too often so don't expect anything to change.

It was basically a petition thread, so it doesn't surprise me. Adding this isn't a popularity contest or a majority-rules vote anyway. Need constructive arguments about the real concerns to encourage meaningful debate and discussion.
LagunaZio wrote: »
There was indeed a Fashion Coupon Store update a few months ago and they added what they found in the game that was available for them to add, but they don't have the entire same list of weapon skin models that other regions have for whatever reason.

They updated 1 of 2 planned parts and then just gave up.

Mostly because they need to get the other items from BHS. They added everything they could use from the build at the time. That said, I don't know if there's been progress on having BHS create the missing items for them in the meantime; I would ask, but right now as I said, they've said they want to do Elite + Emporium first.
xigncode3 is not, by any measure, an effective piece of software. the only people it will stop from logging in to tera are legitimate players (false positives are common), and when those players fail to login, do you think they're going to contact support and wait 3 days to login after uninstalling unrelated software, or google a fix and start cheating so they can play in 5 minutes?

The problem with the "false positives are common" argument, in terms of convincing EME, is because they already use this now on all their other games and PUBG (where they provide the support). PUBG has millions of players, so whatever issues there are with this tool, they already know them by now. They are deciding to add this knowing what they're getting into, including from a support point of view.

Again, I do not agree with adding this software particularly because it seems to be entirely ineffective, but I still don't think they are anticipating a high level of customer technical problems compared to what they already went through.
GKWXJGDXPL wrote: »
Appreciate the feedback! Edited the post with your comments.

Thanks for the consideration. I think your updates are an improvement at clarifying/narrowing the argument about the real concerns everyone has.
Just trying to do an objective analysis of your points for the sake of the argument, and a few comments. (This is NOT trying to dismiss the arguments, just comments about them.)
DIONI wrote: »
- Taxes the system to some degree by performing full file system hash scans.
Technical Clarification: What people have suggested is that it scans files that have been touched/accessed within 48 hours (and even then, it may be subject to further criteria). If you have dozens of TBs of files attached to your computer, it's not like this game is going to scan the whole thing, or it'd take literally hours to start the game.
DIONI wrote: »
- Requires regedit to fully purge in some instances, even after uninstalling the original game.
Because it wasn't installed by the original game (but installs when the game launches) the uninstaller can't remove the file or registry entry. (Installshield only removes things it created.) However, it doesn't do anything without being triggered by the game. So this is a "technically true, but sounds worse than it is" point.
DIONI wrote: »
- Can generate false positives leading to users being unable to play or having to work around it (adding to the stack of backlogged EME tickets)
This is potentially true, but I think EME would contest the severity of this point because they are already using it on all their other EME games (and BHS's self-published game, PUBG). They would probably say they are equipped to handle this.
DIONI wrote: »
- The balance between usefulness and data exposure is heavily skewed toward the latter due to bypass.
This is, at least, fairly subjective. The risk of "data exposure" doesn't seem higher than other anti-virus/anti-malware software that perform file checks based on signatures. The fact that players don't trust the developer is partly due to it being an international company.


I do want to say that I appreciate your effort to make a clear, fact-based analysis of the issue. My own conclusion was also "if it's not going to solve the problem, it doesn't seem worth it" and that would agree overall with the logic you presented.
Infinitee wrote: »
LegateTR wrote: »
EDIT#1: Thank you for all the responses, all my questions were thoroughly answered and I now feel a lot more comfortable letting XIGNCODE install on my PC. One last question I have is whether XIGNCODE is safe for SSDs, or if it will drastically reduce their lifespan?
pretty sure installing a tera patch would introduce far more wear on your drive than a system scan

Agreed. Not to mention the amount of files the game that are already being touched and accessed constantly when you play the game itself, or the amount of files just accessed by Windows already on a daily basis. A system scan is tiny in the grand scheme of the number of reads an SSD can support.

scanning and hashing a 50gb TERA install constantly (at minimum, every time TERA is launched) is a LOT more strain on an SSD than installing something once. Not to mention how horrific tera already is for disk read/writes, and how having a program scanning and hashing while running tera will slow that down even more. Hello grey blobs! Hello invisible boss AOE's and skipped animations! Yaaaay!

We will see how it works soon for TERA enough. In the other games I've played that use the same software, it has not done anything nearly this aggressive or that puts that much strain on the drive or resources. "Constantly scanning and hashing" isn't the effective way to do it anyway.
DeusFurta wrote: »
The unfortunate problem that arises with asking people to uninstall the game is most that have committed any decent amount of time to it will probably just use the bypass. A lot of people also won't even voice their opinions about it because it's easier to just bypass the problem rather than try and get EME to change something. Also the whole vote with your wallet thing is a little harder in a game that you've already dumped thousands of hours into especially when alternative games in the genre are mostly garbage.
Well, the fact that people have made so much noise about how easy it is to bypass does also hurt some of the worst-case-scenario arguments in this thread. As you say, the people making the most noise about the evils of this software were probably always planning to bypass it anyway, so it's sort of an argument in the abstract. EME obviously knows this too.

DeusFurta wrote: »
TERA seems to be slipping into the role of "Not as bad as other games". I wish there was more competition.
Competition is always good, in my view. Fortnite's sudden rise is making BHS try harder to fix PUBG, and they probably would never have done that if not for this market pressure. If there were some serious competition to TERA, I'm not sure what BHS would do, but it'd be good for us gamers in the end.
I do know there was a Fashion Coupon Store update a couple months ago, but we have not heard anything yet.

There was indeed a Fashion Coupon Store update a few months ago and they added what they found in the game that was available for them to add, but they don't have the entire same list of weapon skin models that other regions have for whatever reason.

Obviously the old remodeling system had a lot more flexibility and provided a lot more options. But when they implemented reaper and started doing class-specific model swapping, it didn't work anymore. So they probably can't bring the old system back, but we'll still keep pushing to get the other weapon skin models at least. Right now I think their focus is going to be on Elite and the Rewards Emporium first, based on the priority list they provided.
Infinitee wrote: »
LegateTR wrote: »
EDIT#1: Thank you for all the responses, all my questions were thoroughly answered and I now feel a lot more comfortable letting XIGNCODE install on my PC. One last question I have is whether XIGNCODE is safe for SSDs, or if it will drastically reduce their lifespan?
pretty sure installing a tera patch would introduce far more wear on your drive than a system scan

Agreed. Not to mention the amount of files the game that are already being touched and accessed constantly when you play the game itself, or the amount of files just accessed by Windows already on a daily basis. A system scan is tiny in the grand scheme of the number of reads an SSD can support.
Khalgoroth wrote: »
Show me your opinion is worth its salt if you want to defend XIGN. PM me your XIGN logs and show me that it isn't spyware. I shouldn't have to defend myself when I say that I don't want random-[filtered] third-party software being installed on my computer when all I want to do is PLAY TERA LIKE I HAVE FOR THE PAST 6 YEARS WITHOUT XIGN. The proof of burden is on you.

Could you point me to even once where I suggested that people should want this software? I don't think this software is necessary since it doesn't solve anything, and that's what I've said over and over. And I'm not even telling people they shouldn't express their disagreement in this thread either. But, if we're going to have a conversation about it, at least be objective about what it actually does and how it actually works, and not just lie, exaggerate, and extrapolate worst case scenarios all day.

If you don't want this software, uninstall the game now. If enough people do that, and their numbers reflect it, EME will have to do something. Other companies have removed XIGNCODE from their game before.
voidy wrote: »
One guy pulled up a laundry list of files XIGNCODE examined that had absolutely nothing to do with his games, and even showed that it spent an inordinate amount of time going through his porn folder for some reason. That picture is in this thread. I'm not going to hunt it down for you.

The reason for this is pretty clear if you think about how all anti-virus, anti-malware, and similar scanners work. Programs that can interface with the game are not limited to being installed in the game folder. They can installed anywhere on the computer; yes, even in someone's "porn folder." (If you tell the scanner to exclude some folder, I wonder where people will put the offending software...) So just scanning your game folder alone serves absolutely no purpose at all if the intent of the scan is to look for software that allows you to inject/bypass/debug/etc. It has to look for signatures of blacklisted programs everywhere.

Whether the software is effective at finding and disabling this software is another issue, and clearly if it's implemented such that it can be easily bypassed, then it's pointless. (Games like PUBG, for instance, have played this cat-and-mouse game for a while now, which did have some effect at reducing the ease of cheating.) And this is also aside the question on whether EME should be installing vulnerability scanning software at all, which is the crux of the debate. But, clearly, if any vulnerability scanning software didn't look everywhere on your PC (including all the "hidden corners"), it would not be doing an effective scan.
Infinitee wrote: »
here is a statement by a former community manager of black desert online (a game where xigncode is commonplace) from 2017.
There are other similar statements in the Blade and Soul FAQ and DFO news post and many others. All these companies that use XIGNCODE know they'd be in some serious deep [filtered] if these accusations were true, and that isn't how they want to ruin their companies.

But the problem with this conversation, like many conspiracies, is that people who believe the worst will just either say a) "well, of course they say that, that's what they want you to believe" (in other words, it's a cover-up), or b) "maybe they haven't done that yet, but they could" (in other words, it's a disaster waiting to happen), or c) "what other reason could they have to do this thing, except for unethically stealing all our personal data" (in other words, all companies are pure evil with soulless employees who hate us all). And you can't even really argue against those sorts of positions; if that's the way people want to live their lives, it's their choice -- if that's what they believe, they must uninstall the game now based on EME's decision.

In the end, most people in this thread don't want a reasoned fact-based discussion about pros and cons, because they think more anger and controversy is going to force EME to respond and maybe change their minds. Later on, if they decide to stick around anyway, they can just walk back whatever lies, half-truths, conspiracies, or fabrications they blindly espoused, saying they were based on "reasonable fear and uncertainty" and blame it all on EME's "lack of transparency" and "lack of notice." And hey, I would have liked more transparency and notice as well (in addition to not thinking this tool will solve anything at the moment), but I don't think a sliver of truth justifies a mountain of falsehoods.
Christin wrote: »
DeusFurta wrote: »
You know what would be hilarious, if Wellbia actually paid EME to attach their software onto the game so Wellbia could sell our data xD
It's not worth the massive fines and legal cases against all parties, not to mention all the incredibly bad press for all the developers/publishers that use the XIGNCODE already (including BHS on PUBG, and tons of other developers/publishers). It'd completely ruin everything for all those involved, and whatever pennies they think they could make on data isn't worth that risk at all.

The only games I can find using this are based in Korea. Anyone know of any games using this based in the US? Wondering if it might even be illegal for a game to send data from US systems over to Korea like that. There must be a reason US publishers aren't flocking to Wellbia.

I strongly suspect it's because of the way the dev teams have to interact with the anti-cheat programming teams to perform integrations like this, so Korean developers tend to choose a Korean company to work with, and English-speaking developers tend to choose English companies. But fundamentally, this particular set of tools isn't really all that different from the similar tools Western developers use; none are foolproof. It mostly depends not on the tool, but on how determined the developers are to keep constantly pursuing the cause. With enough determination and skill, they can at least keep the cat and mouse game "interesting." (Now, likelihood that BHS has that much determination and skill related to pursuing this for TERA...)
DeusFurta wrote: »
You know what would be hilarious, if Wellbia actually paid EME to attach their software onto the game so Wellbia could sell our data xD
It's not worth the massive fines and legal cases against all parties, not to mention all the incredibly bad press for all the developers/publishers that use the XIGNCODE already (including BHS on PUBG, and tons of other developers/publishers). It'd completely ruin everything for all those involved, and whatever pennies they think they could make on data isn't worth that risk at all.

LegateTR wrote: »
1) Will XIGNCODE have a significant impact (at least 10 fps loss) on a mid to high PC? My specs are a 1060 6GB and an i56400.

1) From what I understand, it depends in part on how they configure it, but I don't expect mid-to-high-end PCs will be the ones most severely impacted. (K-TERA has always had this, and their performance has typically been found to be the same or better, even with this on.)

LegateTR wrote: »
2) Will XIGNCODE only run while playing Tera, or will it take up performance space when I play other games too?

2) From my experience with other games, it will typically close after you finish playing the game, unless the game crashes or it otherwise fails to close for some reason. In those occasional cases, I may kill the process.

LegateTR wrote: »
3) If I choose later on to uninstall Tera, will XIGNCODE uninstall with it, or linger on my computer and affect the performance of other games?

3) Because the system driver is installed by the game (and not by the installer), the normal uninstall won't know to remove it. However, the driver doesn't do anything on its own. It can just be deleted if you no longer need it. It will not affect the performance of other games that don't use it.

LegateTR wrote: »
4) If XIGNCODE does not uninstall when uninstalling Tera, how complicated is it to uninstall XIGNCODE? Will I need extensive computer knowledge?

4) See above, delete one file, and if you want to be thorough, a related registry entry. It is not complicated. (It could probably be easily scripted, if someone hasn't already done so.)

LegateTR wrote: »
5) I've played many MMO's and I've heard that some MMO's use XIGNCODE. How can I check to determine whether XIGNCODE is already installed on my PC?

5) As was mentioned above, look for xhunter1.sys in your Windows folder. (If you don't find it there, you can do a search for it.) As was said, though, it doesn't do anything without being activated by a game that uses it.
Koikoi wrote: »
Do you know if they switched anything in the last week or so?

I went from 15 ping (relatively close to the servers) to spiking 300-2000 during primetime.

Doesn't look like anything switch globally anyway. But it may be something changed between you and there. Here's what I'm seeing at the last hops to the DC. What are you seeing?

6 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms ae16.cr1.ord2.us.zip.zayo.com [64.125.31.51]
7 38 ms 41 ms 40 ms ae1.mpr2.ord6.us.zip.zayo.com [64.125.30.133]
8 39 ms 38 ms 39 ms ae3.mpr1.ord5.us.zip.zayo.com [64.125.28.206]
9 38 ms 39 ms 39 ms 64.125.186.90
10 31 ms 33 ms 32 ms 208.67.48.46
11 41 ms 40 ms 40 ms 208.67.48.46
12 40 ms 39 ms 39 ms 208.67.49.36
Rathgar wrote: »
DIONI wrote: »
That is actually the strangest thing to me, why add something that should prevent hacking but doesnt?

That's actually more obvious than we all realize. All they care about is money. They have a deal to make more money with third party software. Just look at all the cash grab events since Arsenal patch. While I really do appreciate the fact that need income to keep the game going the gem box, key events and flash cash shop sales should have had us seeing the writing on the wall: they (the real powers that be) just want to work on their 2 newest games and screw Tera. They've milked the game for every penny in recent months. Where are all the improvements from that? Really, I mean where are they?

maybe you know something I don't?

My expectation is that EME are paying for the use of Xingcode3, not the other way around.

Yes, I'd expect there'll be a cost for using the service, but it may be that BHS gets a good deal after deploying it so widely for PUBG, and for TERA in all other regions (and for all EME's other games), so the incremental cost to add it may not be that high.

In the end, I don't know what exactly led to this now, but it could be as simple as the fact that BHS's NA team, who works in the same office as EME, suggested it after their experience in trying to lock down PUBG, and EME staff was already trained on how to use/deploy it anyway from all their other titles, so it's just standardization. Who knows.


I mean people can defend Xigncode all they want but the fact its actually ILLEGAL to put on EU Tera client tells you all something :+1:

It's not illegal to use that software in the EU. There are simply steps that would have to be taken to prove compliance with GDPR. I am assuming that EME and all other companies who currently use this software in the EU have done their due diligence for this (and if they haven't, well, they need to, but that doesn't mean it's illegal; it would only cause a problem if they don't take the needed steps to demonstrate compliance).

I'm not a fan of this software either, but I think it should be debated on its merits/demerits. (The fact that it's questionable whether this will actually do anything to prevent cheating while requiring this more-invasive scanning process that ties up CPU is already enough of a demerit.)


https://www.reddit.com/r/Dirtybomb/comments/3bjfxt/xigncode_is_in_violation_of_several_eu_laws_on/

Just use google my friend, just use google, and stop digging yourself deeper in muck n shi*

In this thread, where the OP was deleted, there is absolutely no smoking gun that either supports or insinuates the EU laws that the software supposedly violates. It just mostly points back to another thread, already linked here, that suggests the software touches and hashes files you've modified in the last 48 hours and, while playing the game, is monitoring your keystrokes. I also did "just use google" and there are no other clear, compelling presentations of which laws are being violated and how. If the information actually exists, I'd like to see it, but that link isn't it.

TomRipley wrote: »
Fulzoid wrote: »
TomRipley wrote: »
I don't know if our version will do that. But the fact that it touches the files to hash them does not mean that it's uploading them either, any more than any anti-virus software, anti-malware software, or other similar tool.

Healthy scepticism is fine, but it's like people have taken all the most paranoid voices around the Internet on this topic and combined them as if that's what it does based on well they could do all these other things too, maybe and we just can't trust them.

Counterpoint, I know you're often the voice of reason on the forums, but here you're simply asking to give trust in advance.

Where do I click to unlike this comment? :O Counterpoint always been doing his "off the grid" player council around the forum. He picked so many fights that he couldn't win and brought so many [filtered] to it. I can't even see where the "voice of reason" apply...

I know he's sometimes off the mark, but at least he usually seems to try and make a solid argument, whether you (or me for that matter) agree with it or not. What I've read from him so far in this thread is missing the target by a lot.

I am not in any way against people's skepticism, reluctance, mistrust, or disinterest in installing this software, or in their right and privilege to say "I'm not installing that [filtered] on my PC." Everyone has the right to make that call, and EME may well suffer for people's decisions. They'll be to first to know if that's the case.

My "target" is to just separate the "FUD" from the fact-based concerns/problems people have so I can clearly convey the underlying issues, in the hopes that they can at least be addressed somehow (even if it's just through clearer communication). I have my own concerns that I stated to them already (about the weight of the solution against the apparent ineffectiveness against the problem, and the need to post clear/transparent information about the software does).

Please don't interpret my being against unsubstantiated statements on this topic as if I'm "pro" this software. At least I will say that I don't see the point of adding it if it won't help.
4) as a developer, i will experience frequent crashes and frustration due to this because of activities entirely unrelated to TERA

I am a developer and login to other games with XIGNCODE3 pretty much daily. Even when I have my dev environment, VMs, docker containers, VPNs, etc. etc. running, I haven't encountered any crashes. Maybe TERA will be different and will cause these problems; we'll see. If it does, I'll be first to complain.
I think what will help is a set code that detects auto spamming of this nature, it isn't hard to implement

Won't work because they'll just change the auto-spamming slightly so that it works again. They have watchers to make sure their message is getting through.

This is one of my most-hated parts of all MMOs, honestly.

ooh, i have an idea to stop spam like this.. GM's who actually play tera and log in to servers more than once a month!

Surely you've seen how this works (or doesn't work) in other MMOs. It's pure whack-a-mole. The bots are scripted. There's the spammer, and the watcher. Kill the spammer, wait a bit, the watcher takes over, a new watcher appears. It's never ending. They're even using IoT botnets to get distributed IP addresses now so you can't just IP ban or even country ban.

If only the solution were this simple.
CornishRex wrote: »
clfarron4 wrote: »
Goosey wrote: »
To even play this game now, you'd basically need a burner PC that just runs TERA and nothing else, because once you have this installed your PC, it will be compromised and will not be safe to do anything You won't be safe to read emails, log into any websites, nothing. Everything you do will be captured and logged, and any valuable information will be exploited against you.
Is there actually any substantiated evidence to support this claim? This software is used actively by other major Korean MMOs, including BDO and BnS, all EME's other games, and TERA in Korea and Japan. Is there any evidence that anyone's computers been compromised in this way? If there's any evidence of anything like this actually happening, all these companies need to know so they can sue the hell out of Wellbia for the liability they imposed.

I don't think proof of it happening is the point here - The point is that EME, a company who is fairly well known for being inept and lying to their customers both intentionally and unintentionally, has just asked every single TERA player to install a keylogger and file system scanner on their own computer, to send our data to a third party. Not only that, but all the evidence points to this malware not even working for it's intended function. So, basically EME is just asking us to send *everything* we do on our computers for 48 hours before playing tera to a third party for NO reason whatsoever. That's the problem people have with this change.

That's also not true, though. It's not a keylogger. It does not "send *everything* we do on our computers for 48 hours before playing tera to a third party" at all. It scans the files and hashes them to scan against known signatures, like how an anti-virus works. Yeah, even that is more invasive than I'd like, but it's not the same thing.

I'm not a fan of this software, and I do think it's pointless as long as it's completely ineffectual at its supposed function (I wouldn't have introduced it until I was sure it actually solved a problem that needed solving, if it were up to me), but the FUD about what it does is just so completely through the roof that I have no idea where people are getting it from. I don't think it's necessary to lie and exaggerate about what the software does to convince EME that it's a bad idea, because EME already knows these lies and exaggerations aren't true anyway, and are just FUD. It hurts the argument people are trying to make! I've no problem if an army of people come on to say they don't want to install it, they don't trust it, they don't think it'll work, on and on and on; there's plenty to choose from.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DFO/comments/30tcb6/xigncode_looks_at_all_files_youve_accessed_in_the/

http://i.imgur.com/zOEDkVa.png

DFO a game with XignCode bundled with it. Why does it need to scan files in your Firefox Profile data?

I don't know if our version will do that. But the fact that it touches the files to hash them does not mean that it's uploading them either, any more than any anti-virus software, anti-malware software, or other similar tool.

Healthy scepticism is fine, but it's like people have taken all the most paranoid voices around the Internet on this topic and combined them as if that's what it does based on well they could do all these other things too, maybe and we just can't trust them.

It slows down performance though. I don't have antiviruses/antimalware for this reason. Every time scans start my laptop starts dying. I don't like that.

Also to quote some guy from reddit:
It comes down to transparency and who it's supposed to serve.

An anti-virus or anti-malware program is ostensibly under "your" control, it's there to find threats and protect you, it's generally telling you what it's doing, and it only sends information abroad in specific circumstances it is (or at least should be) somewhat verbose about.

Anti-cheat is another story -- it's this secretive little goblin in the corner that doesn't talk to you, there to protect a party that's on the opposite end of an Internet link. It's natural for said party to want to acquire information from the client; at that point, "how much" is a very appropriate question.

The best part is, xigncode is entirely useless against actual hackers (as seen from bdo, bns, ktera even) and does nothing but tank your performance. What the [filtered] point? How much has xigncode paid bhs to use their product lmfao

These arguments I can accept; they're valid concerns, at the very least. I will be very interested to see how much performance is impacted across the board. I know that I have played other games with XIGNCODE3 that seem to perform well (better than TERA, though that's not too surprising sadly), but I guess you don't know what you're missing. And as I said before, I agree that it only makes sense to implement this sort of system if it will clearly solve some sort of problem, so if it doesn't actually solve anything, it does seem pointless.

It's weird to me that people are in one breath making so much noise about how this is easy to bypass, and in another breath yelling about how this is the worst thing in the world. Maybe it's true that only the "innocent will suffer," but I guess we'll see what happens. Worst case scenario, we've seen other games that added it and later removed it because it didn't serve its intended purpose.
clfarron4 wrote: »
Goosey wrote: »
To even play this game now, you'd basically need a burner PC that just runs TERA and nothing else, because once you have this installed your PC, it will be compromised and will not be safe to do anything You won't be safe to read emails, log into any websites, nothing. Everything you do will be captured and logged, and any valuable information will be exploited against you.
Is there actually any substantiated evidence to support this claim? This software is used actively by other major Korean MMOs, including BDO and BnS, all EME's other games, and TERA in Korea and Japan. Is there any evidence that anyone's computers been compromised in this way? If there's any evidence of anything like this actually happening, all these companies need to know so they can sue the hell out of Wellbia for the liability they imposed.

I don't think proof of it happening is the point here - The point is that EME, a company who is fairly well known for being inept and lying to their customers both intentionally and unintentionally, has just asked every single TERA player to install a keylogger and file system scanner on their own computer, to send our data to a third party. Not only that, but all the evidence points to this malware not even working for it's intended function. So, basically EME is just asking us to send *everything* we do on our computers for 48 hours before playing tera to a third party for NO reason whatsoever. That's the problem people have with this change.

That's also not true, though. It's not a keylogger. It does not "send *everything* we do on our computers for 48 hours before playing tera to a third party" at all. It scans the files and hashes them to scan against known signatures, like how an anti-virus works. Yeah, even that is more invasive than I'd like, but it's not the same thing.

I'm not a fan of this software, and I do think it's pointless as long as it's completely ineffectual at its supposed function (I wouldn't have introduced it until I was sure it actually solved a problem that needed solving, if it were up to me), but the FUD about what it does is just so completely through the roof that I have no idea where people are getting it from. I don't think it's necessary to lie and exaggerate about what the software does to convince EME that it's a bad idea, because EME already knows these lies and exaggerations aren't true anyway, and are just FUD. It hurts the argument people are trying to make! I've no problem if an army of people come on to say they don't want to install it, they don't trust it, they don't think it'll work, on and on and on; there's plenty to choose from.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DFO/comments/30tcb6/xigncode_looks_at_all_files_youve_accessed_in_the/

http://i.imgur.com/zOEDkVa.png

DFO a game with XignCode bundled with it. Why does it need to scan files in your Firefox Profile data?

I don't know if our version will do that. But the fact that it touches the files to hash them does not mean that it's uploading them either, any more than any anti-virus software, anti-malware software, or other similar tool.

Healthy scepticism is fine, but it's like people have taken all the most paranoid voices around the Internet on this topic and combined them as if that's what it does based on well they could do all these other things too, maybe and we just can't trust them.
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