TERA Online forum archive
TERA PC - General Discussion: Tera in 2019. A review from MMOByte.

Accurate...

TERA PC - General Discussion#3 RKC10/01/2019, 03:24 AM

Yeh I have to admit that is spot on. I dont know what the developers are doing with tera and as much as I love this game, having all classes and all races all max level with good gear but right now it is just soo bland to play the game.

Im sorry tera as much I love you and you will always be the game that made me game like hell but I cant do this anymore good bye. :(

The hard turn from leveling content to endgame and community expectations therein has been a constant problem with this game that's partly on the developers and partly on the veteran player community. There's a very heavy "you should already know what you're doing so you're not wasting our time" vibe, but most casual players are not going to go out and Google all these guides, videos, and other references so they can not make any mistakes on their first try. Most people just queue for end-game content the way they queued for leveling dungeons along the way and find suddenly that all the expectations changed. Even if they had managed to get into PvP, it has many of the same issues. This is basically what keeps the endgame experience something only for the core players -- the people who will go out of their week to seek out the information and "get good" so they can keep playing the game.

Of course the game also added a bunch of solo content and other things to do, but for people who primarily enjoy playing dungeons (it seems this player primarily leveled via dungeons), it's basically the end of the road if they're not willing to invest. The fact that they also released the level cap increase without a corresponding new zone/quest structure (as they did in the FoA expansion) also makes it less accessible to casual players, and they're either forced into endless grinding or again, dungeons, which have the aforementioned problem. The new zone they're adding now doesn't entirely help because it starts at level 68 and requires you to be geared up a fair ways, so you still have to bridge that gap on your own.

In any event, the video is a fair presentation of this person's experiences while playing the game, and while I don't think those experiences will apply to everyone, it's fair to say that it will apply to some people, and some of these problems are really difficult to change at this point. (For example, no matter what they do now to make the game more welcoming to casual players, you're not going to easily change the attitude of the existing veteran players.)

@counterpoint said:
The hard turn from leveling content to endgame and community expectations therein has been a constant problem with this game that's partly on the developers and partly on the veteran player community. There's a very heavy "you should already know what you're doing so you're not wasting our time" vibe, but most casual players are not going to go out and Google all these guides, videos, and other references so they can not make any mistakes on their first try. Most people just queue for end-game content the way they queued for leveling dungeons along the way and find suddenly that all the expectations changed. Even if they had managed to get into PvP, it has many of the same issues. This is basically what keeps the endgame experience something only for the core players -- the people who will go out of their week to seek out the information and "get good" so they can keep playing the game.

Of course the game also added a bunch of solo content and other things to do, but for people who primarily enjoy playing dungeons (it seems this player primarily leveled via dungeons), it's basically the end of the road if they're not willing to invest. The fact that they also released the level cap increase without a corresponding new zone/quest structure (as they did in the FoA expansion) also makes it less accessible to casual players, and they're either forced into endless grinding or again, dungeons, which have the aforementioned problem. The new zone they're adding now doesn't entirely help because it starts at level 68 and requires you to be geared up a fair ways, so you still have to bridge that gap on your own.

In any event, the video is a fair presentation of this person's experiences while playing the game, and while I don't think those experiences will apply to everyone, it's fair to say that it will apply to some people, and some of these problems are really difficult to change at this point. (For example, no matter what they do now to make endgame more welcoming to casual players, you're not going to easily change the attitude of the existing veteran players that's grown over years of passive reinforcement.)

Believe that's mostly meant metaphorically.
Anyone playing long enough is aware changes will most likely never happen.

Would be surprised if I'm mistaken.

TERA PC - General Discussion#6 TJKat10/01/2019, 03:09 PM

@counterpoint said:
The hard turn from leveling content to endgame and community expectations therein has been a constant problem with this game that's partly on the developers and partly on the veteran player community.

And since that video got made, leveling has only gotten worse. Sure, they may have tightened up and streamlined the story, but leveling to 65 has become the most boring, and pointless process imaginable. People used to joke that leveling to 65 was the tutorial, but now it isn't even that. It wasn't the best learning process before, but now you learn nothing. Nothing lives long enough for you to actually try your skills and see how they work. Nothing really hurts you - self damaging skill will hurt you a lot more than mobs will - so you never learn to move or position yourself. The sheer number of people you see running 65+ content with no green crystals because they never learn what a crystalbind is or what it's for is astounding.

Sure, some of the blame lies on the veteran community's "you should already know" attitude, but the lion's share of the blame rests with the developer who has brought the leveling process to the point where they might as well start players at level 65 with all their skills and gear because the current leveling process won't leave you any more prepared for level 65+ content.

Thanks for sharing this! I used to love TERA. Being a founder, I'm a saddened by what the game's become after all this time but it happens to all MMOs at one point or another.

TERA PC - General Discussion#8 Nopi10/04/2019, 02:55 PM

Hello, checked this forum by chance when it showed up in my browser's list. Still, I'm posting as a retired player. I've seen MMOByte's channel and so far he seems honest and informed enough. His current opinion of the game is spot on from my perspective as well. Anyway, I stopped playing this game not because of the mentioned problems, (in my case I finally recognized that if I can't make friends nor join a group, I shouldn't be near any MMO at all) but I recognized these issues long ago. The biggest current problem for me being the huge gap in between leveling and end game, a road the devs and publishers have largely left for the players themselves to walk alone. Sure, yes, the community could have played a great part here, but with no guidance, and with the rather prevalent existence of the elitist self serving mentality some high tier players insist on bringing into the game, the community effort breaks apart, leaving newbies discouraged.

Sadly this isn't the only MMO suffering of this, and it is one of the reasons why the genre seems to be on constant decline.

Me and others have proposed changes before. As in: To make leveling content meaningful again. It does not need to be remade into the ultra long leveling of before, but making monsters require actual effort to defeat so people can learn their classes and the importance of gear in the heat of combat before ever reaching level 65. For example. Don't send me to kill 50 weak beasts spread around a map and with a low spawn ratio. That's boring and only teaches me to use attack and spacebar till my digits bleed. Send me to either a room with a horde of small enemies that come in large groups, or send me to kill one or two super strong enemies that could kill me easily if I'm not careful around them. I'd mention other things but since I'm not playing, I'd be talking from misinformation, so I'll leave it at this for now.

Bottomline, MMOs can be fixed and rescued, but it requires effort from both devs and community to make it happen.

Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.

So, make the world pretty again and hand hold them to 70. Wait, they don't like the hand holding, but then complain about it when they don't get their hands held. I don't get it. He also doesn't like that there aren't any quests people have to hunt for? Everything seems fine until they get to higher levels and have more expected from them. Then, they get upset over a few kicks and more upset that they don't get led to 70.

The main problem is that people can't agree on what to do to fix the game. They want harder content, yet complain when they get kicked or content is too hard for them. They want to be lead to each level yet complain that the game is leading them through each level. When the game stops giving them easy quests to complete for the last 5 levels, they gotta complain about that as well. You wanna be lead through content or you don't wanna be lead through content? They want no more kicking when and if they get kicked, yet complain that others don't know what they are doing in dungeons.

I really think a big part of it is that the game is trying to make so many people happy, which makes people mad, because they don't like to or want to do everything. Almost like there is too many options or something. "PVP is dead." So they can't handle dealing with leveling after 65, yet somehow, they are going to champion pvp? Even if pvp hadn't been dead, they would have been raging at getting kicked more or mad over something else pvp related.

I agree about making the world pretty again. I don't get the thinking that trashing the world to make it look like the bad guys are winning is helping anything. Even in one of the patches a few months ago, they made more areas bleak and depressing. If anything, they need to change areas back to being pretty. Maybe they are keeping the pretty for those level 68 and higher?

Lets get rid of the grinding to. I know the hard core players like the grinding, but grinding is boring, so yeah, no more grinding. Just quest me to level 70 please. Let me dungeon for top gear and don't let anyone kick me either, because I will always say it's the first time I've done that dungeon. I am always learning.

I agree with Christin on this one. Trying to satisfy everyone destroys mmos and the part where he got mad about being kicked while admitting he didn't know mechs made me wince. How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide? He's a youtuber and in one of his other videos I forget which tbh, he states that he had to look up guides for some mmos. So it's not like he is incapable of research. "Handhold me please" then goes to "Handholding is bad". That is paraphrasing of course in case anyone wants to be "That guy" or "That girl" and say "oh but he didn't directly say that" like it wasn't directly implied in the video. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too.
It's obvious that tera has problems, quite a few in fact. However, going in expecting to be given things while expecting it to be hard but not too hard to do casually is dumb. It's antithetical to any serious gearing and leveling system.
He generally has decent reviews and videos but he dropped the ball on this, similar to lazy peon's ffxiv video in it's presentation and content.

TERA PC - General Discussion#11 Nopi10/05/2019, 03:52 PM

I agree also that some of the messages were skewed. As I said before, there could be a clear line that tells players "this is what you can do to enjoy the game as a casual, and this is what you should be expected to do to go further than that." Yes, there's the star system in the dungeon list, and an explanation of what those stars mean right besides the dungeon list. But do people read? Maybe a more in your face approach could guide some people..... but will certainly anger others.

As others have said, you can't please everyone. And instead of trying for an everything approach, maybe the devs should just point the game towards a certain demographic. Because after all, it's extremely hard, or maybe impossible, to make casuals and hardcore players coexist in the same place with the same content. And with the dwindling population, it would be a really bad idea to create a "classic" or "hardcore" server to further divide the stuff.

So yeah, maybe it's time for EME to see which demographic they want to serve, and kick the rest out for good... again, dwindling the game's numbers even more, but at least finally gaining an identity that may be beneficial in the long run... hopefully.

As for MMOByte, as honest as he may seem, he should also get his thoughts sorted. Because after all, he monetizes from them and a non-clear mind is bad for business.

I do enjoy earning upgrades rather than simply being handed them but the level 70 update, even though it took a good amount of time to complete, was not well thought out addition. Yeah sure it gave players something to do and to work towards. But it also made all of their alts useless and provided a huge wall of grind to climb with little content to back it up.

A much better way of doing an update like that would be to stratify the changes and progression over a longer period of time. That way you give players a chance to progress to whatever the level temporary cap is without feeling like they have to kill bams for hours a day to catch up. In the end everyone does the same amount of work. But you're able to hold player's attention and make a patch last much longer without so much dead time and without so many people giving up and quitting because of the ridiculous grind.

The Caiman event is a terrible way to solve progression issues. It does the job sure, but killing bams for hours to have a chance of getting a guy to spawn that has a chance of spawning a portal only to enter and be rewarded but for for what? Mindlessly clearing some of easiest "end game content" TERA's ever seen locked behind layers of rng. Where's the challenge in that?

Hopefully the new patch will address the gearing system that is now reaching critical mass. Of course I don't think I'm ready to spend 10's of millions of gold getting the new p2w pets. (I could write a very long rant about how much I hate the partner system...)

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.

So, make the world pretty again and hand hold them to 70. Wait, they don't like the hand holding,

It should be noted Byte is a professional MMOs are what he does for a living; and he has no little experience of Tera. Now I have no doubt that he must of been standing on the wrong Pixel, or used the wrong skill, in the wrong order, or in someway offended someone Eliteness. God forbid; but I think the point was, and its pretty clear in the comments of the YouTube; if a player of even that level can get booted; how are new commers ever supposed to learn... Oh yes there not they offend your Leetness. Fine really you have every right to never party with someone beneath you; but please then stop whinning about how your game is dying.

Because you cant have it both ways. You can Have a tiny, ever diminishing population of Elitists, or you can welcome new players into your game; but when you boot someone thats an invitation to leave the game, not just the party. So hand out all those invites you want; and when your game dies remember it was YOU that killed it.

@Blackbirdx61 said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.

So, make the world pretty again and hand hold them to 70. Wait, they don't like the hand holding,

It should be noted Byte is a professional MMOs are what he does for a living; and he has no little experience of Tera; if you check his library this is like the 3rd Video he has done on the game over the years. Now I have no doubt that he must of been standing on the wrong Pixel, or used the wrong skill, in the wrong order, or in someway offended someones Eliteness. God forbid; but I think the point was, and its pretty clear in the comments of the YouTube; if a player of even that level can get booted; how are new commers ever supposed to learn... Oh yes there not they offend your Leetness. Fine really you have every right to never party with someone beneath you; but please then stop whinning about how your game is dying.

Because you cant have it both ways. You can Have a tiny, ever diminishing population of Elitists, or you can welcome new players into your game; but when you boot someone thats an invitation to leave the game, not just the party. So hand out all those invites you want; and when your game dies remember it was YOU that killed it.

Frankly I have never in my life seen anyone get kicked in a leveling dungeon (that wasn't afk of course) and I've leveled well over 50 characters over the 4 years I've been playing. Much less seen anyone get kicked for gear? Or not knowing mechs? In a leveling dungeon. I wonder what was the case in reality, perhaps he meant a lvl 65 dungeon but he said he got to 64 so that's weird as hell.

TERA PC - General Discussion#15 Jerichow10/06/2019, 04:08 PM

@CornishRex said:

Frankly I have never in my life seen anyone get kicked in a leveling dungeon (that wasn't afk of course) and I've leveled well over 50 characters over the 4 years I've been playing. Much less seen anyone get kicked for gear? Or not knowing mechs? In a leveling dungeon. I wonder what was the case in reality, perhaps he meant a lvl 65 dungeon but he said he got to 64 so that's weird as hell.

I have - it's pretty awful. Was running KC right at the border of leveling dungeons and starting to get into actual gearing dungeons, and after the first boss two people started trying to kick the archer that didn't keep up in DPS. I accidentally misclicked to kick the first guy but wrote it off as a mistake. After they did it again to the person who replaced the first guy - I refused to kick them and asked to just finish the dungeon. They just trolled the party (and didn't recruit because one was party leader) - and just kept throwing up the kick vote for the next 40-ish mins until the last random decided to leave - few seconds later, I was gone too.

I sent in a pretty lengthy and scathing report for the two players but honestly I would bet money that it never amounted to anything. The problem is, that one run alone set the expectation of how the end game is for two new players, and then for me, an at-the-time +2yr Lancer main - that queuing in this game outside of a static has devolved into just toxic elitists who would rather spend an hour trolling a random party than to just finish the last boss of a dungeon a little slower because someone wasn't as sweaty, tryhard as them.

So in that regards - I fully agree with the review, being kicked for the most pathetic and arbitrary reasons by openly vocal and hostile toxic elitists probably does more damage to this game's population than a lack of content. My only regret is that I don't get to see the faces of these cancerous people when they get the notice that Tera is shutting down. That moment when they realize the game they so openly prided themselves on, with borderline hostility towards anyone 'lesser' than them is shutting down would be hilarious to watch, if only because we all know that it was their antagonistic, better-than-you attitudes they shoved in every newer player's faces was a key driving force in the downfall of this game's player count.

TERA PC - General Discussion#16 Christin10/06/2019, 09:15 PM

@Blackbirdx61 said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.

So, make the world pretty again and hand hold them to 70. Wait, they don't like the hand holding,

It should be noted Byte is a professional MMOs are what he does for a living; and he has no little experience of Tera; if you check his library this is like the 3rd Video he has done on the game over the years. Now I have no doubt that he must of been standing on the wrong Pixel, or used the wrong skill, in the wrong order, or in someway offended someones Eliteness. God forbid; but I think the point was, and its pretty clear in the comments of the YouTube; if a player of even that level can get booted; how are new commers ever supposed to learn... Oh yes there not they offend your Leetness. Fine really you have every right to never party with someone beneath you; but please then stop whinning about how your game is dying.

Because you cant have it both ways. You can Have a tiny, ever diminishing population of Elitists, or you can welcome new players into your game; but when you boot someone thats an invitation to leave the game, not just the party. So hand out all those invites you want; and when your game dies remember it was YOU that killed it.

I could care less at how "professional" of an MMO player he is. Kicking is part of a game, and the only way not to get kicked is be geared and know what you're doing. Kicking is part of MMO's, so if he is such a professional, he should be able to get over it. Alos, if he is such a professional, why didn't he go over a guide of the dungeon instead of crying over being kicked, because he was such a noob? He even states in the video that he didn't know the dungeon, but how is he supposed to learn? Guides buddy.

And no, I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people that don't even bother to look up guides or videos, then, go into a dungeon totally expecting to be carried and hand held the entire way through. Sure, they may not know all of the mechs, but when they gotta hide behind rocks but just stand there and die, you can't blame a team for getting annoyed. Most of the players that gripe about "elites" are simply players that feel they deserve to be carried through until they can "learn". Plus, even telling players the mechs in the dungeon doesn't work half of the time, because so many of the players don't speak English.

Maybe they should add training dungeons where players can go in and learn the mechs, solo versions of every dungeon or let players run dungeons with NPC's. Of course, they'll be trashed for hand holding like they did with the intro, but at least it will be some way for people to learn. Not sure what else they could do.

TERA PC - General Discussion#17 Christin10/06/2019, 09:22 PM

@Jerichow said:

@CornishRex said:

Frankly I have never in my life seen anyone get kicked in a leveling dungeon (that wasn't afk of course) and I've leveled well over 50 characters over the 4 years I've been playing. Much less seen anyone get kicked for gear? Or not knowing mechs? In a leveling dungeon. I wonder what was the case in reality, perhaps he meant a lvl 65 dungeon but he said he got to 64 so that's weird as hell.

I have - it's pretty awful. Was running KC right at the border of leveling dungeons and starting to get into actual gearing dungeons, and after the first boss two people started trying to kick the archer that didn't keep up in DPS. I accidentally misclicked to kick the first guy but wrote it off as a mistake. After they did it again to the person who replaced the first guy - I refused to kick them and asked to just finish the dungeon. They just trolled the party (and didn't recruit because one was party leader) - and just kept throwing up the kick vote for the next 40-ish mins until the last random decided to leave - few seconds later, I was gone too.

I sent in a pretty lengthy and scathing report for the two players but honestly I would bet money that it never amounted to anything. The problem is, that one run alone set the expectation of how the end game is for two new players, and then for me, an at-the-time +2yr Lancer main - that queuing in this game outside of a static has devolved into just toxic elitists who would rather spend an hour trolling a random party than to just finish the last boss of a dungeon a little slower because someone wasn't as sweaty, tryhard as them.

So in that regards - I fully agree with the review, being kicked for the most pathetic and arbitrary reasons by openly vocal and hostile toxic elitists probably does more damage to this game's population than a lack of content. My only regret is that I don't get to see the faces of these cancerous people when they get the notice that Tera is shutting down. That moment when they realize the game they so openly prided themselves on, with borderline hostility towards anyone 'lesser' than them is shutting down would be hilarious to watch, if only because we all know that it was their antagonistic, better-than-you attitudes they shoved in every newer player's faces was a key driving force in the downfall of this game's player count.

Again, having kicking limits would have worked here. Each player should only be allowed to vote to kick twice per day or something like that. That would stop stuff like this from happening. Maybe limit players to 2 kicks per day and if a player gets kicked 5 or more times, they get a 24 hour cool down. That would also stop players from trying to pull stuff. Again, it's tough to make everyone happy, but yeah, having some limits would at least make people think before kicking.

TERA PC - General Discussion#18 Waitress10/06/2019, 09:23 PM

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

tera's current problem is elitism.
The easiest way to remove the elistimo is to ban all players who kick players from the pt unjustly.

but never the en masse will ban these players from the game because it must be themselves who are keeping the game alive by putting cash on tera and if they were banned that would be a big problem for the game.

the community can try to do 2 thing

  1. changes the head of these elitist players, but we all know that it is useless to try to do so because the years they are used to being elitist.

  2. players avoid writing "that people only know
     is crying just because it was kicked from pt "or" be don't want to be kick pt just search as class, skills, dg and boss works "

it only pushes people away because it gives the impersion that the game is too complicated.
She just goes after an easier and more toxic game to play.

@Christin disse:

@Jerichow said:

@CornishRex said:

Frankly I have never in my life seen anyone get kicked in a leveling dungeon (that wasn't afk of course) and I've leveled well over 50 characters over the 4 years I've been playing. Much less seen anyone get kicked for gear? Or not knowing mechs? In a leveling dungeon. I wonder what was the case in reality, perhaps he meant a lvl 65 dungeon but he said he got to 64 so that's weird as hell.

I have - it's pretty awful. Was running KC right at the border of leveling dungeons and starting to get into actual gearing dungeons, and after the first boss two people started trying to kick the archer that didn't keep up in DPS. I accidentally misclicked to kick the first guy but wrote it off as a mistake. After they did it again to the person who replaced the first guy - I refused to kick them and asked to just finish the dungeon. They just trolled the party (and didn't recruit because one was party leader) - and just kept throwing up the kick vote for the next 40-ish mins until the last random decided to leave - few seconds later, I was gone too.

I sent in a pretty lengthy and scathing report for the two players but honestly I would bet money that it never amounted to anything. The problem is, that one run alone set the expectation of how the end game is for two new players, and then for me, an at-the-time +2yr Lancer main - that queuing in this game outside of a static has devolved into just toxic elitists who would rather spend an hour trolling a random party than to just finish the last boss of a dungeon a little slower because someone wasn't as sweaty, tryhard as them.

So in that regards - I fully agree with the review, being kicked for the most pathetic and arbitrary reasons by openly vocal and hostile toxic elitists probably does more damage to this game's population than a lack of content. My only regret is that I don't get to see the faces of these cancerous people when they get the notice that Tera is shutting down. That moment when they realize the game they so openly prided themselves on, with borderline hostility towards anyone 'lesser' than them is shutting down would be hilarious to watch, if only because we all know that it was their antagonistic, better-than-you attitudes they shoved in every newer player's faces was a key driving force in the downfall of this game's player count.

Again, having kicking limits would have worked here. Each player should only be allowed to vote to kick twice per day or something like that. That would stop stuff like this from happening. Maybe limit players to 2 kicks per day and if a player gets kicked 5 or more times, they get a 24 hour cool down. That would also stop players from trying to pull stuff. Again, it's tough to make everyone happy, but yeah, having some limits would at least make people think before kicking.

I don't think it helps at all
The only thing that happens is that it looks like guild along with several strong players and ignoring the weak and new.

creating themselves the same pt with the same strong guild members ignoring the rest.

TERA PC - General Discussion#21 Nopi10/07/2019, 04:11 AM

MMOs nowadays are representing the clash between players who want to be pre-informed in order to be as efficient with their time as possible, and players who would prefer to discover on site, which was a practice done since before the dawn of internet gaming. Toss trolls and carry seekers in between these groups as well, and we have our current MMO salad. As an older gamer, I used to pick sides before, but after sitting back and observing, I now believe that none of the approaches is actually bad or evil. They both have their low points and high points.

Problem here is, that when a party is formed, those in it usually don't know what the person next to them brings to the game session. And so of course, salt flows freely when it's discovered that player X wants a certain thing from the session and has a certain skill on it, but player Y wants something else and brings a totally different skill set. In simpler modern words, someone who wants to rush the dungeon and knows it like the back of their hand will be at constant odds with someone who joined for the first time and wants to experience every detail of said dungeon. Neither of them will stand the other guy.

And a note here. Mind that not everyone who doesn't read guides is joining dungeons to get carried. There may be a bunch of lazy ones who seek that, but there may be others who really want to learn on the go and don't want to be spoiled by guides or videos. After all, part of gaming is that sense of discovery, self learning and finally conquering. Or at least that's how gaming was back then when I started in the 80's...

So for now, all I can say is to search for like minded people and get yourself what would be called a "static" party if possible. That way you will always know what to expect from the other members and share your goals.

TERA PC - General Discussion#22 Serenade10/07/2019, 07:26 AM

@Christin said:
I could care less at how "professional" of an MMO player he is. Kicking is part of a game, and the only way not to get kicked is be geared and know what you're doing. Kicking is part of MMO's, so if he is such a professional, he should be able to get over it. Alos, if he is such a professional, why didn't he go over a guide of the dungeon instead of crying over being kicked, because he was such a noob? He even states in the video that he didn't know the dungeon, but how is he supposed to learn? Guides buddy.

And no, I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people that don't even bother to look up guides or videos, then, go into a dungeon totally expecting to be carried and hand held the entire way through. Sure, they may not know all of the mechs, but when they gotta hide behind rocks but just stand there and die, you can't blame a team for getting annoyed. Most of the players that gripe about "elites" are simply players that feel they deserve to be carried through until they can "learn". Plus, even telling players the mechs in the dungeon doesn't work half of the time, because so many of the players don't speak English.

Maybe they should add training dungeons where players can go in and learn the mechs, solo versions of every dungeon or let players run dungeons with NPC's. Of course, they'll be trashed for hand holding like they did with the intro, but at least it will be some way for people to learn. Not sure what else they could do.

There is no excuse for kicking in sub-65 dungeons. Especially not because of gear.

Also, both of them are veterans of TERA. Learning dungeons haven't changed save for the removal of Sigil Adstrigo. I highly doubt that they are incompetent enough in those to justify a kicking.

@Waitress said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

I believe it also heavily depends on the content. Old dungeons used to be more self explanatory and mechs were much easier to explain. Nowadays I'd have a hard time explaining some bosses in a concise way.
And yes, players are at fault. Friendly communities still exist in tera. But some newbies insist on using ims to learn which is quite the risk. I always explain mechs in ims if needed don't get me wrong, but there are guilds that would gladly go on an exploring adventure with you even today. Just go look at the guild advertisements in tera discords, there's a decent number of friendly and casual/learning guilds trying to get members. Randoms in ims are 50/50, some will have fun wiping for 2 hours and trying to clear, some won't. You can't expect everyone to want to "explore" with you when they explored that dungeon over 200 times already, sadly. That's why there are means of clearing dungeons other than ims such as making friends, joining guilds, making learning lfgs etc. But that requires some work and patience. As for the toxic players, I wish that could change but man some people take games too seriously today. I don't know why they have high standards in ims, just as I don't get why newbies expect everyone to teach them in ims. There's two sides of the coin and both have some self-reflecting to do.

TERA PC - General Discussion#24 Fainall10/07/2019, 12:21 PM

I have played this game a year and a half now. Not nearly as long as some, but long enough. I don't mind working and learning something, but I also look upon this as what it is...a game. Games are supposed to be fun. I shouldn't have to read a book, watch a feature length movie 3 times and take 25 pages of notes to learn each dungeon. Especially when many of them are ever changing. I want a challenge, not a second job. That is the part on EME. On the community side, it is pretty rough here. I have a geared char that I have learned about. I know how to play it. Am I ever going to be at the top of my class? Probably not. Am I a little above average? I think so. Tonight I was in a dungeon. I got laughed at and made fun of for doing something wrong with my class. I asked what exactly was wrong? I have read guides, I have done what other really good players for my class have told me to do. But it's never good enough. They said I need to read a guide. Ok well...first of all...show me a guide that isn't outdated. And what am I even looking for? If you make fun of people and don't tell them what they are doing wrong how are they supposed to fix it? When you combine these two things, the desperate need to be perfect in every dungeon right from the start by endless off game studying, and the toxic nature of elite players...it's not fun. So I sat and I thought about this for a while. I went and hit that cancel subscription button as a result. I like the game, I like the aesthetics, (except for as other players have mentioned, the dreary map areas after certain levels) but I realized it's just not fun anymore. I think his assessment in the vid is spot on sadly. People complain the game is dying and they blame EME. While I do think things could be done better by them, I also think so much of the dying of the game is the player base itself. If you don't want it to die, and have people to play with, you shouldn't treat them like garbage when they are legitimately working and trying to do the best they can. There comes a point where they think why am I here?

well it's kind of hard to want a guy who is playing for a maximum of 2 weeks to have equipment and abilities of a player who has more than 3 years of play.

elitist just want to do pt with other strong player.
plus all elitists forget that for a player to become a strong veteran in 1 game, he must first be a beginner in the game first.

most likely when the game could not be saved, these elitists will change the way they think, but it will be too late

TERA PC - General Discussion#26 Fainall10/07/2019, 04:36 PM

@Waitress said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

If I could like this post 100 times I would! lol I was leveling a nubby alt yesterday and got to Necromancer's. It really struck me (once again) at how people in a party don't get that it's not just about them. The que popped, I went in instantly. One person loaded in right beside me, the other person was already 3 rooms ahead having killed everything. Cause why would you want to wait for the rest of your party right? They don't deserve that exp from the first few mobs. As long as you can run ahead and solo everything who cares about the other people in your party. /endsarcasm Honestly if I could find just a few more people with your mindset, I might actually be inclined to stay on the game. But you my friend are a dying breed.

@Waitress said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

I liked your comment haha basically you told these two idiots the truth.

TERA PC - General Discussion#28 TJKat10/07/2019, 07:26 PM

@Fainall said:
The que popped, I went in instantly. One person loaded in right beside me, the other person was already 3 rooms ahead having killed everything. Cause why would you want to wait for the rest of your party right? They don't deserve that exp from the first few mobs. As long as you can run ahead and solo everything who cares about the other people in your party. /endsarcasm

What blows me away is that this behavior is bad for the person in a rush too. You get, what? A 400% boost to xp when the full party is IN the dungeon. In leveling dungeons, the xp you get from mobs IS significant, so it makes no sense to rush ahead like that.

@Waitress said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

First, Cringe. Second, NO. You whining about generations adds nothing to the conversation. The fact that you already said that guides are out there proves you had the opportunity to learn it and you voluntarily turned it down. It then follows to show that your attitude is the problem. Tera is an old game and unlike in the 80s or whatever irrelevant date you want to throw out like it means, many people already know the dungeons and don't want to facilitate "Exploring" or whatever you want to call it.

Guides are not mandatory, but ignoring them of your own volition is your flaw. Elitists didn't block you from looking at a guide. YOU chose not to look at it and then whine on the forums. For someone who has time to play games as long as you had, looking at a guide for an hour or so doesn't seem too hard, but then again, your being very hyperbolic in this.

Yet again, you feeling something doesn't make people who just want to get their dungeon runs over and not wait around while you "explore" in the wrong or make them some generational problem. You say you think the generation thinks everything is about them but turn around and expect people to give you THEIR time while you "explore".

Your little hyperbolic rant about "3 weeks researching a dungeon" means that you are unwilling to learn in an effective way and expect the party to suffer because of YOUR attitude.

Your red herring analogy about a store in town is not in any way like a mmo dungeon.
With a store, most of the time it's only you shopping.
With a party in a mmo there are other people besides yourself.
For someone who says the new generation is only thinking of themselves, your analogy says a lot.

As for you saying people don't want to waste time and wipe for doing it wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. Who in their right mind would want to wipe and waste time just because someone intentionally decided to not look up a guide?
You're being entitled. Stop it.

TERA PC - General Discussion#30 Fainall10/07/2019, 11:14 PM

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@Waitress said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

First, Cringe. Second, NO. You whining about generations adds nothing to the conversation. The fact that you already said that guides are out there proves you had the opportunity to learn it and you voluntarily turned it down. It then follows to show that your attitude is the problem. Tera is an old game and unlike in the 80s or whatever irrelevant date you want to throw out like it means anything, many people already know the dungeons and don't want to facilitate "Exploring" or whatever you want to call it.

Guides are not mandatory, but ignoring them of your own volition is your flaw. Elitists didn't block you from looking at a guide. YOU chose not to look at it and then whine on the forums. For someone who has time to play games as long as you had, looking at a guide for an hour or so doesn't seem too hard, but then again, your being very hyperbolic in this.

Yet again, you feeling something doesn't make people who just want to get their dungeon runs over and not wait around while you "explore" in the wrong or make them some generational problem. You say you think the generation thinks everything is about them but turn around and expect people to give you THEIR time while you "explore".

Your little hyperbolic rant about "3 weeks researching a dungeon" means that you are unwilling to learn in an effective way and expect the party to suffer because of YOUR attitude.

Your red herring analogy about a store in town is not in any way like a mmo dungeon.
With a store, most of the time it's only you shopping.
With a party in a mmo there are other people besides yourself.
For someone who says the new generation is only thinking of themselves, your analogy says a lot.

As for you saying people don't want to waste time and wipe for doing it wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. Who in their right mind would want to wipe and waste time just because someone intentionally decided to not look up a guide?
You're being entitled. Stop it.

Playing a game IS wasting time. It's not like you are out there finding a cure for cancer or solving world hunger. But I am curious about something...do you have fun while you are playing Tera? Actual fun the way you should have while wasting time and playing a game? Do you smile when you play this game Aldedo? Because you are always so serious and so vitriolic to people who don't take it as serious as you. You do understand that it's exactly this type of attitude that drives people away from Tera right? You can be all serious and blame people for not wanting to read guides and go off game to learn things, but a day will come when there will be 3 people left on this game because of this type of attitude. Is that what you want? Or can you possibly try to see other points of view sometimes? Not everyone has the same goals as you. Some people just like to play the game for FUN!

@AlbedoBloodfallen
Okay, I'm lost. Some people just want to, you know... play the game and not have to do extra research. How is that being entitled?

I can't believe some of you guys. "He's whining about getting kicked he shoulda read a guide lol" No other game community I've been in, MMO or otherwise, has this invisible rule about looking up guides. Worse yet, even if someone does go the extra mile and does advanced research, they can still get kicked, shunned, and ostracized for their mistakes because there's not an insignificant amount of people who demand perfection in everything.

And, of course, that's before we get into the fact that reading about a dungeon is not the same as actually experiencing it. I've been in parties where we read guides for literal days on end and it still took 2 hours for our first clear.

Everyone reading this, if nothing else, think about this: what other community almost demands that you do advanced research to play it and do you honestly think that's good for both the game and the players therein?

TERA PC - General Discussion#32 TJKat10/08/2019, 02:09 AM

@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

@Fainall said:

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@Waitress said:

@Christin said:
Interesting video until he practically starts crying over getting kicked from a few dungeons. Only alternative is to not allow kicking, so yeah.
@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
How hard is it to look up a dungeon guide?

Oh reading these comments just drove me nuts lol. Another ex player here that pops up from time to time to state very obvious things.
I too started at first beta, p2p, etc. Back then we didnt HAAAAAAAAAAAVE to read guides and THAT is the point!!!!!!!!!! lmao.

And as someone else said, this isn't just a Tera issue anymore.
I'd say it's more like a newer gamer generation thing where none of them want to explain anything. None of them want to get to know anyone, everyone wants to play solo and think that they're the only person that matters. Years ago, MMOs were about teamwork. No, not in the sense that you all already read some guide that someone else typed out for you telling you exactly what to do so you don't have to use even one brain cell. You just charged in and figured it out together how it works. Sure, maybe someone in group saw a video about it. But it was NEVER this mandatory thing that it is these days where if you admit that you didn't spend 3 weeks researching the ins and outs of every single dungeon in a game you're literally trying for the first time then you get yelled at and kicked. If that was the situation, I wouldn't have played for 4 years lol.

It doesnt even make sense anyway. If I'm going to a new store in town, I don't google the owner, their family, the etiquette-I just go shopping!!! and that's how playing MMOs used to be. and that's why they're dying now. Because people went from enjoying to play and learn together to getting visibly upset and shaken at even the idea of not only having to interact with someone but to even have to interact with someone who didn't study before downloading the game like they were apparently supposed to. I feel like this entire generation has no idea what it means to explore anymore. If they don't have a guide telling them which way to wipe their behind, they're just not gonna wipe to avoid "wasting time" doing it wrong lmao god

So yes, a lot of players are at fault too. Don't act innocent and like all newbies are supposed to impress you from the jump.
If people weren't rude to each other you'd have more players and that's that on that.

First, Cringe. Second, NO. You whining about generations adds nothing to the conversation. The fact that you already said that guides are out there proves you had the opportunity to learn it and you voluntarily turned it down. It then follows to show that your attitude is the problem. Tera is an old game and unlike in the 80s or whatever irrelevant date you want to throw out like it means anything, many people already know the dungeons and don't want to facilitate "Exploring" or whatever you want to call it.

Guides are not mandatory, but ignoring them of your own volition is your flaw. Elitists didn't block you from looking at a guide. YOU chose not to look at it and then whine on the forums. For someone who has time to play games as long as you had, looking at a guide for an hour or so doesn't seem too hard, but then again, your being very hyperbolic in this.

Yet again, you feeling something doesn't make people who just want to get their dungeon runs over and not wait around while you "explore" in the wrong or make them some generational problem. You say you think the generation thinks everything is about them but turn around and expect people to give you THEIR time while you "explore".

Your little hyperbolic rant about "3 weeks researching a dungeon" means that you are unwilling to learn in an effective way and expect the party to suffer because of YOUR attitude.

Your red herring analogy about a store in town is not in any way like a mmo dungeon.
With a store, most of the time it's only you shopping.
With a party in a mmo there are other people besides yourself.
For someone who says the new generation is only thinking of themselves, your analogy says a lot.

As for you saying people don't want to waste time and wipe for doing it wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. Who in their right mind would want to wipe and waste time just because someone intentionally decided to not look up a guide?
You're being entitled. Stop it.

Playing a game IS wasting time. It's not like you are out there finding a cure for cancer or solving world hunger. But I am curious about something...do you have fun while you are playing Tera? Actual fun the way you should have while wasting time and playing a game? Do you smile when you play this game Albedo? Because you are always so serious and so vitriolic to people who don't take it as serious as you. You do understand that it's exactly this type of attitude that drives people away from Tera right? You can be all serious and blame people for not wanting to read guides and go off game to learn things, but a day will come when there will be 3 people left on this game because of this type of attitude. Is that what you want? Or can you possibly try to see other points of view sometimes? Not everyone has the same goals as you. Some people just like to play the game for FUN!

Maybe for you playing a game is wasting time but for me, playing a game is serious business. I like to be efficient in games and gear fast and learn content and complete it. I don't have a problem with people being casual but when they intentionally go out of their way to not read guides and not be efficient on other people's time then I have a problem. It's because I like playing this game so much and that I smile while playing it that when people intentionally ruin content for other people then go off and whine on the forums about "Elitism" that ruins my day.

It's kind of black pilling to log on to a game you wholeheartedly love and enjoy playing and see people complaining about the fact that by their own admission that they ruin content for others and expect other people to waste their own valuable time just to suit their own stubbornness. Yet again, the reason I am so "Vitriolic" as you put it is because I don't like how some people are so entitled they are mad that other people don't like having their time wasted.
To be brutally honest, I'd rather push away 50 people that do not play the game or [filtered] on it than lose 5 who support the game and finance it. It's not people who don't like the game that support it in large amounts. I would rather see the game sputter and die with a dedicated small community than with a choking community full of people that don't like the game and the community and constantly crap on the devs and the game.
And when the game dies, which it will, I can walk away knowing I did what I could.

Sage wrote . Okay, I'm lost. Some people just want to, you know... play the game and not have to do extra research. How is that being entitled?
I can't believe some of you guys. "He's whining about getting kicked he shoulda read a guide lol" No other game community I've been in, MMO or otherwise, has this invisible rule about looking up guides. Worse yet, even if someone does go the extra mile and does advanced research, they can still get kicked, shunned, and ostracized for their mistakes because there's not an insignificant amount of people who demand perfection in everything.
And, of course, that's before we get into the fact that reading about a dungeon is not the same as actually experiencing it. I've been in parties where we read guides for literal days on end and it still took 2 hours for our first clear.
Everyone reading this, if nothing else, think about this: what other community almost demands that you do advanced research to play it and do you honestly think that's good for both the game and the players therein?

Nice straw man big guy. How he is being entitled is he knows they exist and purposefully ignores them and wastes other people's time then whines about it on the forums. Since you somehow have never met anyone in any other mmo community that tells people to read guides, I'll do you a favor and name a few for you.

World of Warcraft. Me and quite a few of my friends have been told to read guides to learn the dgs and raids.
Blade and soul. My bro on discord has been told to read guides.
Runescape 3. I've seen many people kicked from ed3 raids because they didn't read guides
And of course lets not forget Aion where many people I know have been kicked and told to read guides.
I find it very sus that you come to posts and post things like this.

Reading things about the dungeon is not the same as doing it, you're right but it does tell you and show you what to do. Let's also not conveniently forget about video guides sage.
Everyone reading this, if nothing else, think about this: In what other mmo community are people unironically defending people who intentionally waste people's time for their own selfish desires?

@TJKat said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

You are just spouting your feelings and opinions again boss. Slow down and nice straw man, sage made the same one. You are saying I'm looking for perfection and have some standards wich of course you can't quantify or even prove exist. YOU are entitled because you expect other people to waste their own time for you. You are not owed their time. You trying to convince me other people owe you their time by making an arbitrary accusation is not very convincing big guy. Trying to call me entitled for not letting people like you waste my and other people's time is childis and falls flat of it's mark.

TERA PC - General Discussion#35 Fainall10/08/2019, 02:47 AM

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@TJKat said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

You are just spouting your feelings and opinions again boss. Slow down and nice straw man, sage made the same one. You are saying I'm looking for perfection and have some standards wich of course you can't quantify or even prove exist. YOU are entitled because you expect other people to waste their own time for you. You are not owed their time. You trying to convince me other people owe you their time by making an arbitrary accusation is not very convincing big guy. Trying to call me entitled for not letting people like you waste my and other people's time is childis and falls flat of it's mark.

And you Albedo are not owed our time to read guides or live up to your expectations. Do you have any idea how what you write comes off as so incredibly toxic? You are the quintessential elitist, is your time so much more precious than anyone else's? Also you said this is a serious business for you...are you making money off this game somehow? Because it sounds like you are if you consider it business as opposed to recreation. Also stop trying to belittle people by calling them ridiculous things like straw man and childish for not living up to your sky high expectations. Just please stop it. And when the game dies, as you know it will...you will know you played a huge part in it's death by treating people like garbage because they don't live up to YOUR expectations. If you hate everyone else so much then get like minded elitists and only run dungeons with them. Stay away from everyone else and we all be happier because we won't have to contend with your elitist crap and we won't waste your oh so precious time.

@Fainall said:

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@TJKat said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

You are just spouting your feelings and opinions again boss. Slow down and nice straw man, sage made the same one. You are saying I'm looking for perfection and have some standards wich of course you can't quantify or even prove exist. YOU are entitled because you expect other people to waste their own time for you. You are not owed their time. You trying to convince me other people owe you their time by making an arbitrary accusation is not very convincing big guy. Trying to call me entitled for not letting people like you waste my and other people's time is childis and falls flat of it's mark.

And you Albedo are not owed our time to read guides or live up to your expectations. Do you have any idea how what you write comes off as so incredibly toxic? You are the quintessential elitist, is your time so much more precious than anyone else's? Also you said this is a serious business for you...are you making money off this game somehow? Because it sounds like you are if you consider it business as opposed to recreation. Also stop trying to belittle people by calling them ridiculous things like straw man and childish for not living up to your sky high expectations. Just please stop it. And when the game dies, as you know it will...you will know you played a huge part in it's death by treating people like garbage because they don't live up to YOUR expectations. If you hate everyone else so much then get like minded elitists and only run dungeons with them. Stay away from everyone else and we all be happier because we won't have to contend with your elitist crap and we won't waste your oh so precious time.

Ahh so you're playing the circular argument game. You don't owe me your time but I don't owe you mine. That's not a solution. The fact that you can't understand that you are wasting other people's time when you are stubborn is not a good thing. Am I making money off of this game? No, but I do view my time as money to be spent wisely so when someone wastes it, I don't like it. Whhat you are essentially trying to make me do is give you my money when you ask for my time.
It might be different for you since your time must be free and good for you. Just know that not everyone's time is free.
Can you cite my "Sky high" expectations other than try to learn a end game dungeon before hand so you don't waste other people's time?
Protip: You can't. It's just your way of trying to shame me for not letting people waste my time.
Yet again, cite my expectations.
"You hate everyone" That's just silly. I won't even entertain that.
Calling me names now? I'm an "Elitist" because I don't like my time wasted? That's a hot take if I ever heard one.
Go on, sell me on the idea that wasting my time is good. I'll wait.

TERA PC - General Discussion#37 Christin10/08/2019, 03:17 AM

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@TJKat said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

You are just spouting your feelings and opinions again boss. Slow down and nice straw man, sage made the same one. You are saying I'm looking for perfection and have some standards wich of course you can't quantify or even prove exist. YOU are entitled because you expect other people to waste their own time for you. You are not owed their time. You trying to convince me other people owe you their time by making an arbitrary accusation is not very convincing big guy. Trying to call me entitled for not letting people like you waste my and other people's time is childis and falls flat of it's mark.

Just be thankful most of them no longer play the game, so at least there are a few less people demanding a carry. For the most part, they just wanna have tantrums over getting kicked, because they are in a perpetual state of "learning" the dungeons. However, they don't want kick limits. No, they want kickers to get banned. Really? As if customer service has any interest in reading the constant crying over dungeons.

BTW, not sure most of you really have a clue as to how ignorant you're acting. As if none of you needed to read guides when you started playing to learn how to do most of the stuff we have to do in game. Were you just constantly spamming global with every question you had? You're the reason people kick in this game, because your lazy mentality simply gets old after a while. Veteran players aren't paid to teach you dungeons. They don't get extra bonuses if you get the team killed, because you can't even bother to look at a guide. Maybe most of you selfish players forget that some of these players ARE PAYING CASH TO BE ABLE TO DO DUNGEONS! Not that you care, as I doubt most of you pay for coins, but some do. Why is it their responsibility to teach any of you anything? It flat out isn't! You're pretty much defending complete laziness, selfishness and demanding others take their time and money to teach you stuff you don't want to learn on your own. And then people wonder what is happening to the world and why so many people feel entitled to everything. This thread is a perfect example of that. Can't even be bothered to take a few minutes to look at a guide or video. After reading what y'all stated here, no, I no longer think they should have any limits on kicking. In fact, I totally understand why y'all are getting kicked.

You're right, you should go back to games that don't require guides. This is an adult game where other adults don't want to have to treat you like a child. Players have taken a lot of their time and energy into creating the guides that you all feel you're too good to read. Maybe games like Roblox and such are better fitted for you. Most of those games don't require guides, so you should really like those games.

Funny how many of you say that games are supposed to be fun, but I guess that only applies to YOU. The people you run dungeons with aren't allowed to have any fun and run with experienced teams. No, they are supposed to sacrifice their fun, because somehow, they owe you something. Sorry, but they don't owe you fun nor do they owe you a free tutorial. They don't owe you their time to explain to you what to do nor do they owe you a free dungeon run, because you can't do your part. They are players just like you, it's just that unlike you, they have taken the time, money and energy to learn the dungeon. Where you have not. Moving on.

@Christin said:

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@TJKat said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

You are just spouting your feelings and opinions again boss. Slow down and nice straw man, sage made the same one. You are saying I'm looking for perfection and have some standards wich of course you can't quantify or even prove exist. YOU are entitled because you expect other people to waste their own time for you. You are not owed their time. You trying to convince me other people owe you their time by making an arbitrary accusation is not very convincing big guy. Trying to call me entitled for not letting people like you waste my and other people's time is childis and falls flat of it's mark.

Just be thankful most of them no longer play the game, so at least there are a few less people demanding a carry. For the most part, they just wanna have tantrums over getting kicked, because they are in a perpetual state of "learning" the dungeons. However, they don't want kick limits. No, they want kickers to get banned. Really? As if customer service has any interest in reading the constant crying over dungeons.

BTW, not sure most of you really have a clue as to how ignorant you're acting. As if none of you needed to read guides when you started playing to learn how to do most of the stuff we have to do in game. Were you just constantly spamming global with every question you had? You're the reason people kick in this game, because your lazy mentality simply gets old after a while. Veteran players aren't paid to teach you dungeons. They don't get extra bonuses if you get the team killed, because you can't even bother to look at a guide. Maybe most of you selfish players forget that some of these players ARE PAYING CASH TO BE ABLE TO DO DUNGEONS! Not that you care, as I doubt most of you pay for coins, but some do. Why is it their responsibility to teach any of you anything? It flat out isn't! You're pretty much defending complete laziness, selfishness and demanding others take their time and money to teach you stuff you don't want to learn on your own. And then people wonder what is happening to the world and why so many people feel entitled to everything. This thread is a perfect example of that. Can't even be bothered to take a few minutes to look at a guide or video. After reading what y'all stated here, no, I no longer think they should have any limits on kicking. In fact, I totally understand why y'all are getting kicked.

You're right, you should go back to games that don't require guides. This is an adult game where other adults don't want to have to treat you like a child. Players have taken a lot of their time and energy into creating the guides that you all feel you're too good to read. Maybe games like Roblox and such are better fitted for you. Most of those games don't require guides, so you should really like those games.

Funny how many of you say that games are supposed to be fun, but I guess that only applies to YOU. The people you run dungeons with aren't allowed to have any fun and run with experienced teams. No, they are supposed to sacrifice their fun, because somehow, they owe you something. Sorry, but they don't owe you fun nor do they owe you a free tutorial. They don't owe you their time to explain to you what to do nor do they owe you a free dungeon run, because you can't do your part. They are players just like you, it's just that unlike you, they have taken the time, money and energy to learn the dungeon. Where you have not. Moving on.

Thank you. I've been trying to be nice to these people but I guess it's pointless. I'm leaving this thread and you should to. We've said all we can.

it's sad to see some wanting to save the game because they like it
and others simply killing the game.

Honestly the game staff should ban all elitists because they are creating chaos that is ruining the game for many new players.

@AlbedoBloodfallen @Christin
I'm just gonna say it - I'm (not really) sorry I'm playing the game for my benefit. Not yours, not your mom's, not EME's, not BHS', no one else's. And that applies to every other person both in and out of this thread. If you don't like that I'm playing the game on my terms and not yours, that's not my problem. Seriously, you're here openly admitting that you treat the game essentially as a job and you have the gall to say people are being entitled because they... don't play the same way you do? Is that really what you're saying?

We all play the game for different reasons and get different levels of joy out of it (yes, even me for as much as I complain about this game). But you - yes, you reading this, whoever you are at this point - can get sodomized by Vergos himself if you think I'm going to go out of my way to sacrifice that joy just so you can feel better.

Rant aside, the fact remains that, even after all these years, the game is still very rough around the edges, and the community - as has been displayed multiple times in this thread alone - is one of those rough edges. If you want more people playing and eventually improving, you can't have these atmospheric expectations and then get upset when a person unaware of those expectations doesn't meet them. Nobody benefits at that point - there will be less people playing the game and, ergo, less people to help you achieve those optimum runs.

Then what?

@ SageWindu....well said

TERA PC - General Discussion#42 Serenade10/08/2019, 06:29 AM

@Christin said:
BTW, not sure most of you really have a clue as to how ignorant you're acting. As if none of you needed to read guides when you started playing to learn how to do most of the stuff we have to do in game. Were you just constantly spamming global with every question you had? You're the reason people kick in this game, because your lazy mentality simply gets old after a while. Veteran players aren't paid to teach you dungeons. They don't get extra bonuses if you get the team killed, because you can't even bother to look at a guide. Maybe most of you selfish players forget that some of these players ARE PAYING CASH TO BE ABLE TO DO DUNGEONS! Not that you care, as I doubt most of you pay for coins, but some do. Why is it their responsibility to teach any of you anything? It flat out isn't! You're pretty much defending complete laziness, selfishness and demanding others take their time and money to teach you stuff you don't want to learn on your own. And then people wonder what is happening to the world and why so many people feel entitled to everything. This thread is a perfect example of that. Can't even be bothered to take a few minutes to look at a guide or video. After reading what y'all stated here, no, I no longer think they should have any limits on kicking. In fact, I totally understand why y'all are getting kicked.

You're right, you should go back to games that don't require guides. This is an adult game where other adults don't want to have to treat you like a child. Players have taken a lot of their time and energy into creating the guides that you all feel you're too good to read. Maybe games like Roblox and such are better fitted for you. Most of those games don't require guides, so you should really like those games.

Funny how many of you say that games are supposed to be fun, but I guess that only applies to YOU. The people you run dungeons with aren't allowed to have any fun and run with experienced teams. No, they are supposed to sacrifice their fun, because somehow, they owe you something. Sorry, but they don't owe you fun nor do they owe you a free tutorial. They don't owe you their time to explain to you what to do nor do they owe you a free dungeon run, because you can't do your part. They are players just like you, it's just that unlike you, they have taken the time, money and energy to learn the dungeon. Where you have not. Moving on.

Christin - I seem to remember you posting about going into some low ilvl dungeons back in the first Starlyn event to take advantage of it on this exact forum, without knowing a bit of what the heck you were doing. Did you forget about that now that you're running with the big boys now?

And, once again, these are leveling dungeons that he was getting kicked, due to GEAR. This isn't Gossamer Hard, or even friggin Antaroths Abyss Normal Mode (they almost certainly don't have the time or gear for that now). This is stuff like Cultist's Refuge and Sabex Armory. I want you to look us in the eyes (metaphorically) and actually tell us that you've done extensive research and made sure your gears are way above requirements for stuff like Sinestral Manor, Cultist's Refuge, and Golden Labyrinth. Given you aren't willing to do that for Kallivan's Dreadnaught just a few months ago when that was the Starlyn Event highlight, I'm betting you didn't do any of that for the leveling dungeons.

How much cash are you paying to do Cultist's Refuge, for christ's sakes?

TERA PC - General Discussion#43 Fainall10/08/2019, 06:30 AM

@Christin said:

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:

@TJKat said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
You are completely missing the point; you shouldn't NEED to read a guide before playing the game. Why are you even playing an MMO? Why aren't you playing a single player game where you won't have to worry about someone else's lack of perfection slowing you down? You accuse people who refuse to look up a guide of being entitled? Your expectation that people study before running a dungeon so that they will measure up to whatever arbitrary minimum standards you've dreamed up is the very height of entitlement. YOU are the entitled one for expecting everyone to treat the game like a job. The people playing the game to have fun and relax are the ones who are doing it right.

You are just spouting your feelings and opinions again boss. Slow down and nice straw man, sage made the same one. You are saying I'm looking for perfection and have some standards wich of course you can't quantify or even prove exist. YOU are entitled because you expect other people to waste their own time for you. You are not owed their time. You trying to convince me other people owe you their time by making an arbitrary accusation is not very convincing big guy. Trying to call me entitled for not letting people like you waste my and other people's time is childis and falls flat of it's mark.

Just be thankful most of them no longer play the game, so at least there are a few less people demanding a carry. For the most part, they just wanna have tantrums over getting kicked, because they are in a perpetual state of "learning" the dungeons. However, they don't want kick limits. No, they want kickers to get banned. Really? As if customer service has any interest in reading the constant crying over dungeons.

BTW, not sure most of you really have a clue as to how ignorant you're acting. As if none of you needed to read guides when you started playing to learn how to do most of the stuff we have to do in game. Were you just constantly spamming global with every question you had? You're the reason people kick in this game, because your lazy mentality simply gets old after a while. Veteran players aren't paid to teach you dungeons. They don't get extra bonuses if you get the team killed, because you can't even bother to look at a guide. Maybe most of you selfish players forget that some of these players ARE PAYING CASH TO BE ABLE TO DO DUNGEONS! Not that you care, as I doubt most of you pay for coins, but some do. Why is it their responsibility to teach any of you anything? It flat out isn't! You're pretty much defending complete laziness, selfishness and demanding others take their time and money to teach you stuff you don't want to learn on your own. And then people wonder what is happening to the world and why so many people feel entitled to everything. This thread is a perfect example of that. Can't even be bothered to take a few minutes to look at a guide or video. After reading what y'all stated here, no, I no longer think they should have any limits on kicking. In fact, I totally understand why y'all are getting kicked.

You're right, you should go back to games that don't require guides. This is an adult game where other adults don't want to have to treat you like a child. Players have taken a lot of their time and energy into creating the guides that you all feel you're too good to read. Maybe games like Roblox and such are better fitted for you. Most of those games don't require guides, so you should really like those games.

Funny how many of you say that games are supposed to be fun, but I guess that only applies to YOU. The people you run dungeons with aren't allowed to have any fun and run with experienced teams. No, they are supposed to sacrifice their fun, because somehow, they owe you something. Sorry, but they don't owe you fun nor do they owe you a free tutorial. They don't owe you their time to explain to you what to do nor do they owe you a free dungeon run, because you can't do your part. They are players just like you, it's just that unlike you, they have taken the time, money and energy to learn the dungeon. Where you have not. Moving on.

I have spent tons on this game. TONS. You don't know what people do, why are you assuming anything about how much they spend or anything else about them. Does spending tons of money make you a good player? Does it make you more entitled somehow? (Also insert obligatory crying from elitists about P2W people.) You can't have it both ways. No one here is demanding a carry. Not one person has demanded a carry in this thread. NOT ONE. Also I have never been kicked, but I have seen some pretty toxic behavior none the less. Were you guys perfect on each dungeon on your first few runs? Were you born knowin the mechs? Did you know your rotations at level 1? You make it sound like you were never new to the game. If you are so worried about people wasting your time, then never que for dungeons with random people, cause oh no you might get someone less than perfect and it will waste your precious time and money...a sub works out to 50 cents a day...damn that waste right there...a whole 50 cents down the drain. Just run with the same people who share your attitude...is that so hard? Also who said most of us don't play anymore? One person said that. I am playing until this sub runs out. If I happen to find ONE nice person on the game I might stay...but it's going to be hard to find one these days. But like I and others have said repeatedly...if you want more people to do dungeons with then be patient, be kind, help them a bit. Or if you want the game to die because no one gets parties for end game...then carry on like this.

@AlbedoBloodfallen
@Fainall
Jesus christ you guys.... Both of you are arguing about something with a simple solution and conveniently forgetting about certain important game mechanics that exist exactly with the purpose of alleviating the things you argue about. What the hell is going on lmao

First of all albedo, both you and I know, if you want efficiency and if you don't want 200k/s autoattacking, spacebar-hero type players that are "playing the game their own way :)" in your party you have plenty of good guilds that focus on efficiency, good dps, good gear, high standards and the like. You could also lfg for skilled people which is something I see every day and it's totally okay. Going into IMS and expecting efficiency and no time wasters is ridiculous. IMS is not reliable, you have people often forgetting they were in the queue so you have to kick them, people being first timers is very common, people that don't speak english etc etc. If you don't want to run into people like Fainall and that @Waitress person you have plenty of ways to do so, and plenty of skilled players are already utilizing the aforementioned tools for that purpose. Efficiency. Being able to choose who you play with.

Now Fainall and Waitress and Sage and whoever else defended the bullied newbies that refuse to look at guides same goes to you! Honestly... If you want to learn and have fun like I said earlier, join a casual guild!!! Do a learning LFG!!!! That's what mmos are about you dummies, you need to socialize, I feel like I'm repeating your own point back to you. You'll play with like-minded people and you might get skilled people willing to teach you mechanics as you're learning, I constantly join learning lfgs when I see them and have a good time watching people learn and master the dungeon. The fact that you'd rather use IMS and risk getting some [filtered] is mind boggling to me. The fact that you'd go through the embarrassment and then complain about it afterwards is also.. confusing to say the least.
Also the reason tera community is so hell bent on making people read guides is because most of the community is experienced, the content is really old so you have some catching up to do. It is what it is. Mechanics can be complex in the way that you could wipe the rest of the party if you don't know basics which isn't fun. That is not what fun is. Fun would be if everyone was new and you're figuring things out blindly for the first time. I know that's fun. But one guy making everyone stay an extra hour in the dungeon because only he wants to have fun is a bit selfish.

I feel like both of these sides are anti socials that refuse to make friends (either because they're too mean or too shy or anything between) and instead use ims and hope for the best party they wish for (one wishes for efficiency, other for exploring fun happy times) when both of you could take the matter into your own hands and ignore each other for the rest of your lives.

TERA PC - General Discussion#45 Fainall10/08/2019, 06:43 AM

@CornishRex said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
@Fainall
Jesus christ you guys.... Both of you are arguing about something with a simple solution and conveniently forgetting about certain important game mechanics that exist exactly with the purpose of alleviating the things you argue about. What the hell is going on lmao

First of all albedo, both you and I know, if you want efficiency and if you don't want 200k/s autoattacking, spacebar-hero type players that are "playing the game their own way :)" in your party you have plenty of good guilds that focus on efficiency, good dps, good gear, high standards and the like. You could also lfg for skilled people which is something I see every day and it's totally okay. Going into IMS and expecting efficiency and no time wasters is ridiculous. IMS is not reliable, you have people often forgetting they were in the queue so you have to kick them, people being first timers is very common, people that don't speak english etc etc. If you don't want to run into people like Fainall and that @Waitress person you have plenty of ways to do so, and plenty of skilled players are already utilizing the aforementioned tools for that purpose. Efficiency. Being able to choose who you play with.

Now Fainall and Waitress and Sage and whoever else defended the bullied newbies that refuse to look at guides same goes to you! Honestly... If you want to learn and have fun like I said earlier, join a casual guild!!! Do a learning LFG!!!! That's what mmos are about you dummies, you need to socialize, I feel like I'm repeating your own point back to you. You'll play with like-minded people and you might get skilled people willing to teach you mechanics as you're learning, I constantly join learning lfgs when I see them and have a good time watching people learn and master the dungeon. The fact that you'd rather use IMS and risk getting some [filtered] is mind boggling to me. The fact that you'd go through the embarrassment and then complain about it afterwards is also.. confusing to say the least.
Also the reason tera community is so hell bent on making people read guides is because most of the community is experienced, the content is really old so you have some catching up to do. It is what it is. Mechanics can be complex in the way that you could wipe the rest of the party if you don't know basics which isn't fun. That is not what fun is. Fun would be if everyone was new and you're figuring things out blindly for the first time. I know that's fun. But one guy making everyone stay an extra hour in the dungeon because only he wants to have fun is a bit selfish.

I feel like both of these sides are anti socials that refuse to make friends (either because they're too mean or too shy or anything between) and instead use ims and hope for the best party they wish for (one wishes for efficiency, other for exploring fun happy times) when both of you could take the matter into your own hands and ignore each other for the rest of your lives.

I have friends...or did til they quit. I am not anti social in the least, I am actually a pretty nice girl. And I never said I don't read guides...I have. But I am not going to spend hours upon hours reading them. I have a business to run and real live people in my life. This is for entertainment late at night when my guy is snoring his head off and I can't sleep. And like Sage said, reading a guide and watching a video isn't the same as doing it. I am willing to work a decent amount...just not like a second job because it's a game. This is a form of recreation, the thing games were made for in the first place. Now as for Albedo, and my responses to him...he always comes in and replies to anything I have said, he twists everyone's words to try to make it look like we have said or implied something else, and it's to the point where it's harassment and I am fed up with it. So yeah today I reacted a bit strongly because he has been doing it for months, and not just to me. I usually try to temper my comments to him but there comes a point where enough is enough.

TERA PC - General Discussion#46 Aluh10/08/2019, 06:51 AM

What a bunch of cry babies, no wonder people don't Q for dungeons anymore, have to hold hands with them now a days.

@Fainall said:

@CornishRex said:
@AlbedoBloodfallen
@Fainall
Jesus christ you guys.... Both of you are arguing about something with a simple solution and conveniently forgetting about certain important game mechanics that exist exactly with the purpose of alleviating the things you argue about. What the hell is going on lmao

First of all albedo, both you and I know, if you want efficiency and if you don't want 200k/s autoattacking, spacebar-hero type players that are "playing the game their own way :)" in your party you have plenty of good guilds that focus on efficiency, good dps, good gear, high standards and the like. You could also lfg for skilled people which is something I see every day and it's totally okay. Going into IMS and expecting efficiency and no time wasters is ridiculous. IMS is not reliable, you have people often forgetting they were in the queue so you have to kick them, people being first timers is very common, people that don't speak english etc etc. If you don't want to run into people like Fainall and that @Waitress person you have plenty of ways to do so, and plenty of skilled players are already utilizing the aforementioned tools for that purpose. Efficiency. Being able to choose who you play with.

Now Fainall and Waitress and Sage and whoever else defended the bullied newbies that refuse to look at guides same goes to you! Honestly... If you want to learn and have fun like I said earlier, join a casual guild!!! Do a learning LFG!!!! That's what mmos are about you dummies, you need to socialize, I feel like I'm repeating your own point back to you. You'll play with like-minded people and you might get skilled people willing to teach you mechanics as you're learning, I constantly join learning lfgs when I see them and have a good time watching people learn and master the dungeon. The fact that you'd rather use IMS and risk getting some [filtered] is mind boggling to me. The fact that you'd go through the embarrassment and then complain about it afterwards is also.. confusing to say the least.
Also the reason tera community is so hell bent on making people read guides is because most of the community is experienced, the content is really old so you have some catching up to do. It is what it is. Mechanics can be complex in the way that you could wipe the rest of the party if you don't know basics which isn't fun. That is not what fun is. Fun would be if everyone was new and you're figuring things out blindly for the first time. I know that's fun. But one guy making everyone stay an extra hour in the dungeon because only he wants to have fun is a bit selfish.

I feel like both of these sides are anti socials that refuse to make friends (either because they're too mean or too shy or anything between) and instead use ims and hope for the best party they wish for (one wishes for efficiency, other for exploring fun happy times) when both of you could take the matter into your own hands and ignore each other for the rest of your lives.

I have friends...or did til they quit. I am not anti social in the least, I am actually a pretty nice girl. And I never said I don't read guides...I have. But I am not going to spend hours upon hours reading them. I have a business to run and real live people in my life. This is for entertainment late at night when my guy is snoring his head off and I can't sleep. And like Sage said, reading a guide and watching a video isn't the same as doing it. I am willing to work a decent amount...just not like a second job because it's a game. This is a form of recreation, the thing games were made for in the first place. Now as for Albedo, and my responses to him...he always comes in and replies to anything I have said, he twists everyone's words to try to make it look like we have said or implied something else, and it's to the point where it's harassment and I am fed up with it. So yeah today I reacted a bit strongly because he has been doing it for months, and not just to me. I usually try to temper my comments to him but there comes a point where enough is enough.

Well you should try finding new ones, this is an mmo, a social game. It requires friends to be fun unless you have thick skin and are willing to comb through a sea of dumbasses in ims. Sadly when you ims you have to accept the risk that people you're getting are a mixed bag. Many people that ims do so because of negative reasons like they're not skilled enough, or they're disliked by their server so they can't get into lfgs etc. I personally enjoy ims and I love dealing with all flavours of people but I know some people don't. And for those people you have fairly easy solutions I already gave. As for guides, of course reading them is not the same as experiencing the dungeons. But reading an rke guide to know that you have to activate a pylon at 95% makes the difference from clearing to wiping in a matter of seconds because someone wanted to "have fun uwu". Which like I said, is fine if you have like-minded people with you. I don't analyze and study guides for hours either, I just like getting the gist of it which takes like 5 minutes to skim through. But I'm not crazy enough to queue a dungeon that I never did and expect people not to kick me if I wipe them, frankly I'd be too ashamed to do that lol. And Albedo feels like a weird caricature of a person because if he really was a great efficient player as he claims he was he'd stick to statics and farming in skilled guilds which he doesn't, which makes me wonder. He does have a point though, expecting others to want to have fun with a person that refuses to read guides is a tad selfish and inconsiderate. But then again, it's ims so what do ya expect. It's a dumb circular argument that like I said, has easy solutions.

TERA PC - General Discussion#48 Serenade10/08/2019, 07:27 AM

@AlbedoBloodfallen said:
Nice straw man big guy. How he is being entitled is he knows they exist and purposefully ignores them and wastes other people's time then whines about it on the forums. Since you somehow have never met anyone in any other mmo community that tells people to read guides, I'll do you a favor and name a few for you.

World of Warcraft. Me and quite a few of my friends have been told to read guides to learn the dgs and raids.
Blade and soul. My bro on discord has been told to read guides.
Runescape 3. I've seen many people kicked from ed3 raids because they didn't read guides
And of course lets not forget Aion where many people I know have been kicked and told to read guides.
I find it very sus that you come to posts and post things like this.

People keep on forgetting that Byte is talking about leveling dungeons, so let's put your examples into perspective:

Blade and Soul: NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE, asks for guides on dungeons like Tomb of the Exiles or Forgotten Tomb. When I played B&S in its earlier release dates, people were forgiving about mechanics even on non-end game max level stuff. Instances like Naryu or even Blackram had people dying left and right with no one caring, when they were not the pinnacle instances of the game.

Runescape's ED3 raids are end-game. Obviously you need to read guides for those. That's not even close to comparable to leveling dungeons.

Aion also doesn't kick people for leveling dungeons, from the short periods that I played it.

Reading things about the dungeon is not the same as doing it, you're right but it does tell you and show you what to do. Let's also not conveniently forget about video guides sage.
Everyone reading this, if nothing else, think about this: In what other mmo community are people unironically defending people who intentionally waste people's time for their own selfish desires?

The games you pointed out, save for Blade and Soul, are ones with conventionally easy leveling dungeons, so let me use some of the more difficult ones to show just how silly this argument is.

Wildstar: If you played the game on its early release days before the game casualized, the level 20 dungeons are comparable to end-game ones in other games with demanding mechanics and difficult requirements. PuG parties, even those that know instances left and right, wiped on a regular basis in the game due to this. Reading guides were still not required.

Final Fantasy 14: I played FF14 back in OG and Heavensward, so I remember the level 50 MSQ instances. We had instances like The Chrysalis where PuGs would regularly wipe from mechanics, and as a scholar I've had to carry parties during meteor phase before. Every single leveling dungeon and trial had mechanics that could wipe, and yet, people still didn't demand it. I can't count how many people I carried through and rezzed without even a word when farming my tomestones.

There is no justification anyone can give for requiring you to not only read guides, but also have good gear in a dungeon like Cultist's Refuge that you can solo in outdated blue gear. They are not talking about end-game dungeons here. Both are veterans of Tera and know the mechanics of leveling dungeons already (since aside from Saravash being pushed to a 32 dungeon, none of them changed), which made their experiences even more inexcusable.

TERA PC - General Discussion#49 Fainall10/08/2019, 07:27 AM

I think you are mistaking what I mean when I say I want to have fun on the game...that just means I don't want to study for endless hours like it's a pre-law college course. It doesn't mean I want to troll or a carry or whatever...all I mean when I said the game should be fun is that it should be enjoyable. And I have never ever used that annoying "UWU" thing. I don't mind queing up for random runs at all. I don't mind if someone doesn't know what they are doing or aren't super skilled. I don't mind reading a guide...as long as it's a quick read. That is fine by me....because it's a game. Everyone has a learning curve. I don't understand why ya all think this is so bad. I also don't understand why you people seem to think it's all black and white...either you are skilled and can do the game in your sleep or you are a troll who is lazy and wants to be carried. There are shades of grey in between. Some people are sort of skilled, not asking for a carry and want to learn. But it takes them a bit of time to get the hang of things. Why is that so bad? I just don't get it. Why is it so hard to be patient with people who are genuinely trying to learn it but yet want the game to be enjoyable in the process? Why is that a crime on this game? I have never played a game where the community is like this...and I have played a ton of games.

TERA PC - General Discussion#50 Nopi10/08/2019, 12:57 PM

This thread.... How big you have become in such short time. So much controversy too.... for something so easily solved by the small tips some of us have scattered around these forums for years....

Seek like-minded people before diving in!

This has been a rule of logic since the ancient times of gaming. If you hate a certain gamer demographic, you are making it excessively difficult for yourself by risking playing a game with people you don't want to have near you. Instance matching, as proved so many times, only accepts the patient, forgiving people who can take a a noob triggered wipe and continue on with a straight face. Anyone else will just be granted a headache and a sore evening from it. It's just how it goes when games get older and the gaps between newbies and older players get larger. In too many cases, the older the game, the bigger is the need to get yourself a static. And if all your friends leave, seek new ones or ponder why they left. Maybe you would feel like following them...

Look, not everyone is going to look up extra info and it should not be a requirement to do so. That's the point I'm making, that's the point I've always made. Part of that is on the community, part of that is on the game itself - something I can't help but notice is that not too many people are mentioning the massive learning spike once you hit the 65+ dungeons (which I think Styx touched on?), which then leads to this very topic about game knowledge. I remember having a conversation with someone about how the game itself expects you to have all this extra knowledge that never came up and then penalizes you for not having that knowledge you didn't know you needed (I'd link the post/thread, but it's from like 2 years ago and I currently don't have the patience to look for it).

There's also the fact that the guide in question might be hilariously inaccurate. Even something as lauded as Essential Mana makes mistakes like with their brawler guides - they're written in such a way that they assume the reader has access to specific resources at all times. If that reader doesn't, they're left with a gimped brawler and they have no alternative scaling paths. So now you have a situation where a person did read a guide, but it ended up doing more harm than good since the reader can't get what the guide says they should have and there are literally no other options in lieu of that.

Again, most people just want to PLAY THE [filtered] GAME and not have to do homework for something that should be used for general entertainment (which is a problem for several narrative-driven game even to this day (coughDestinycough). Guides should, ideally, be for augmenting prior knowledge and filling in the holes therein (provided the information is accurate).

Honest question: is that really too much to ask?

Observation: I went back through some of the replies, right?

Where are some of you getting the idea that

"I want to learn on my merits.

or

"I learn better by experience."

equated to

"carry me sempai i'm scared lol UwU"

?

Where are all these scores of people demanding to be carried? Some of you managed to get that out of someone not wanting to read a guide that they didn't even know was a thing and may not be accurate?

Another honest question, as I seriously do not see the correlation.

@SageWindu said:
Observation: I went back through some of the replies, right?

Where are some of you getting the idea that

"I want to learn on my merits.

or

"I learn better by experience."

equated to

"carry me sempai i'm scared lol UwU"

?

Where are all these scores of people demanding to be carried? Some of you managed to get that out of someone not wanting to read a guide that they didn't even know was a thing and may not be accurate?

Another honest question, as I seriously do not see the correlation.

Sometimes learning on your own merits (if starting from 0!) means you're getting the party stuck for a couple of hours. All I'm saying is, if you have 0 experience in a dungeon and you don't want to learn through a guide (which is okay!!!!) find like minded individuals and have all the fun in the world. If you're so hellbent on not looking up a video then you can follow my suggestions a few posts above, it's really simple. Doing so in ims is inconsiderate and selfish to say the least, yes it's just as inconsiderate as the people kicking you if you waste their time (however I'd like to bring up the point most newbies aren't even aware the dungeon they're queuing for might be hard which is another can of worms...). Both parties are at fault. IMS should be a sort of middle ground for people that have some experience in a dungeon and those that do but can't perform up to elitists standards, or it should also serve as a place for people that are too lazy to lfg but are aware of the risks they take when they ims. Also everyone learns better by experience, that point is just unnecessary. I do think the game should prepare you better for the difficulty spike but I also believe this is a point where a player should become involved in a community, a nice guild that will help them and explain things to them. Everyone has a certain amount of responsibility in mmos, it's a more demanding genre imo when it comes to teamwork, pulling your own weight or coming prepared if needed.

It is indeed the games fault for introducing more and more complicated mechs over time but such is the fate of an mmo with a veteran playerbase that needs more challenge to keep things interesting. But there's only so many mechs you can think of, and we all know bhs is not going to go out of their way to innovate too much. Although the recent trend has been doing away with such dungeons. Recent dungeons all have pretty self explanatory mechs, it's just a matter of practice but there's no memorization games or anything too complex to keep track of.

One thing I noticed is that there are many elitist players here saying that there are several players (novice) who need to read a guide and learn the mechanics of DG by video and do not do because they are too lazy to search right?

But aren't they themselves being lazy because they aren't looking for other elitist players to play with them?

really already has the solution for that elitists play with other elitists, but they don't do it because?

because elitists can't stand other elitists.
They should know that conversations with other elitists have probably made them angry at the disagreement with things and then prefer to be doing random dg and kicking the novice player who tries to socialize with other elitists.

@PP597W94LA said:
One thing I noticed is that there are many elitist players here saying that there are several players (novice) who need to read a guide and learn the mechanics of DG by video and do not do because they are too lazy to search right?

But aren't they themselves being lazy because they aren't looking for other elitist players to play with them?

really already has the solution for that elitists play with other elitists, but they don't do it because?

because elitists can't stand other elitists.
They should know that conversations with other elitists have probably made them angry at the disagreement with things and then prefer to be doing random dg and kicking the novice player who tries to socialize with other elitists.

People that are actually really skilled and are elitist or whatever play inside their own guilds and statics you are correct. Those that are forced to ims all the time aren't really at the level of skill they think they are so they take it out on newer players, I've seen it a lot in ims. It's just their egoes that are gigantic and they often forget they were new before too. You know the type: a full heroic oath lvl 70 player that can't do more than 6m/s [filtered]-talks a newbie for messing up a mech when they are playing at an unsatisfactory level themselves.

and there is another solution that would solve this easily
En Masse simply creates a new server with the name "exclusive to elitist" and transfers the account of all elitists to a server separate from the person they want to play casually or have fun in the game.

^That sounds very elitist of you.

I'm sorry.
The name I used was more as an example.
but I think it would be an acceptable solution.

plus i think it creates a server only for "serious player" (server where only those who spend money enter)
would send that "serious players" waste their time with "new players" who do not spend money on the game

Wew the salt in here. Delicious.

@PP597W94LA said:
plus i think it creates a server only for "serious player" (server where only those who spend money enter)
would send that "serious players" waste their time with "new players" who do not spend money on the game

they could always create a training server, where everyone there starts at level 65, not able to buy cosmetics, the dungeons are always open and it is a tutorial to help people learn the dungeons. then you can go back to your normal servers with your regular characters and be able to run with the elites

@allofspaceandtime said:

@PP597W94LA said:
plus i think it creates a server only for "serious player" (server where only those who spend money enter)
would send that "serious players" waste their time with "new players" who do not spend money on the game

they could always create a training server, where everyone there starts at level 65, not able to buy cosmetics, the dungeons are always open and it is a tutorial to help people learn the dungeons. then you can go back to your normal servers with your regular characters and be able to run with the elites

Well, the other way to do this (as seen in certain other MMOs) could be to offer a solo version of the dungeons with NPCs. That way you could do that for your first attempt and it gives you the chance to learn and explore by doing. Wouldn't necessarily have to be a requirement, but I think there is a fairly sizable audience who prefers to learn mechanics without the pressure of having to be perfect the first time. This wouldn't be to replace the team version at all (for people who say "lol solo content in an MMO"), but just another option for learning.

Not that I think something like this is on the table, but yeah, as this thread has pointed out, this is a problem that exists in many MMOs, but increases in severity as the content in question gets older.

server test? it wouldn't work
because there was still the gear set problem.
The players are also kicked by the gear set and not just because they don't know the mechanics of dg.
The only thing that changes is the fact that people talking to a novice player play the serve test instead of looking for a guide.

a test piece would work for those who like PvP
Trying to create a limited serving as much as possible to be fair to everyone and giving the reward to the person independent of the server.

The only thing I really don't see much of a problem would be create 2 server 1 for the "serious players" and others for the "casual" ones.

thus making any player elitist at PT in the "Serve" casual is transferred to the "serious player" serves and plays with other players who only play with "strong player".

Only problem would be the amount of player.
This would give a new player a chance to enjoy the game and spend money on the game and if he wanted to be transferred to the "serious player" server just pay or ask him to transfer it.

@PP597W94LA said:
The only thing I really don't see much of a problem would be create 2 server 1 for the "serious players" and others for the "casual" ones.

thus making any player elitist at PT in the "Serve" casual is transferred to the "serious player" serves and plays with other players who only play with "strong player".

Well, the whole problem with this is IMS, anyway, and even if you had two different servers they'd still meet each other in IMS. The answer would either have to be "the two servers have separate IMS pools" (which would result in longer queues, and you almost might as well just go back to standing near the portal to form parties like original TERA) or "one group or the other should just create static parties rather than using IMS at all" -- and you wouldn't even need two servers if that was the solution.

Besides that... there are a lot of people who think of themselves as a "serious player" when their performance is not up to par, and there are a lot of people who would classify themselves as "casual" but are actually quite competent (despite having less time to play)... so the line isn't so easy to draw if it's self-declared.

But in any case, if you're going down this road, the other approach would be to allow a selection in IMS to say if you're looking for a "learning party" or a "clear party" (though even here, self-declaration is a problem, and it'd slow the queues).

I honestly think what I said about a server for casual and another for serious players would be the best solution right now.

could it go right or could it go wrong? if we try we never know.

or we can let things go and as most here should know more and more people are leaving the game.

hope that the players in the game will be respectful and just an illusion just look at how the game is today I think it is impossible to have any kind of respect.

People are not stopping for any defects in the game (this they tolerated) are stopping because of the quarrel between the Elitist, casual and novice community.

For me and better try to separate them because casual and novice could live together without much problem, more elitist unable to live together with casual or novice.

Someone mentioned Ace Dungeons, either in this thread or another. I think if there were more options like Ace Lilith's Keep (enemy damage output is tuned for solo play but everything else is the same), you wouldn't have so many people clamoring about "read a guide lol".

Run the Ace version a few times, gain knowledge, apply that knowledge in a party, the run goes faster and/or smoother, everyone's happy.

Of course, that still leaves all the other issues with the game (such as the subsequent loot distro upon completing that dungeon) but, you know... baby steps.

@AlbedoBloodfallen
I don't recommend ingesting so much of said salt. Severe hypernatremia isn't exactly a picnic.

TERA PC - General Discussion#68 Fainall10/09/2019, 02:29 AM

@counterpoint said:

@allofspaceandtime said:

@PP597W94LA said:
plus i think it creates a server only for "serious player" (server where only those who spend money enter)
would send that "serious players" waste their time with "new players" who do not spend money on the game

they could always create a training server, where everyone there starts at level 65, not able to buy cosmetics, the dungeons are always open and it is a tutorial to help people learn the dungeons. then you can go back to your normal servers with your regular characters and be able to run with the elites

Well, the other way to do this (as seen in certain other MMOs) could be to offer a solo version of the dungeons with NPCs. That way you could do that for your first attempt and it gives you the chance to learn and explore by doing. Wouldn't necessarily have to be a requirement, but I think there is a fairly sizable audience who prefers to learn mechanics without the pressure of having to be perfect the first time. This wouldn't be to replace the team version at all (for people who say "lol solo content in an MMO"), but just another option for learning.

Not that I think something like this is on the table, but yeah, as this thread has pointed out, this is a problem that exists in many MMOs, but increases in severity as the content in question gets older.

This would be a great solution. As I and others have pointed out, you can read all the guides you want and watch a video over and over but until you actually do it, it's just not the same. Plus people just learn things in different ways. For some reading a guide might be just the thing to give them all the knowledge they need, for others they might forget what they read or panic when they get in there and not remember what to do. What do you do then, say hey can you guys wait while I read my notes since no one wants to yell back or in? Of course not, no one is going to want you to do that either because you will be wasting their precious time. It's amazing to me how precious everyone's in game time seems to be despite scores of people afking in HW or Velika. On every Tera video, guide or review I have watched the comments are always full of people who say the same things, I loved the game but I left because it wasn't fun anymore, gearing rng is too harsh, and/or the community ruined it. So the things people are stating in this thread are universal reasons why people have a hard time after 65 and leaving the game. There are just things that you SHOULD learn in the game by the game giving you some sort of training or instruction that is simply lacking. As far I can remember there was nothing that taught rotations, and I have played the game through doing all the quests on 3 classes. Or even said you needed to use rotations in order to maximize damage. Isn't that kind of a really important thing for new players to know? Because believe it or not, not all games require rotations either. Some are just button mashing as fast as you can.

@counterpoint @Fainall
The only thing that will happen is that all tera players will play solo and avoid the raids because the elitist players expect you to be a god at the time of the raid and to be quick and do massive damage.
where is this going to be a good thing?

and something else do you know that means mmo? "Massive Multiplayer Online" any new player will automatically search for a handheld player who will want to play in group with other players because MMO games are made for several with other players.

ser for play mmo solo and better looking for a singleplayer game.

and even if they create solo raid they would have to modify the raids so that certain classes can do solo by removing some raid mechanics as they are created to be made in PT.
an example: 1 raid made for, 12 player 2 tank, 2 healer and the rest of DPS how would you change this to be accepted for 1 solo player?

And even if the solo player learns the mechanics of DG, would it not be difficult to do good teamwork?

Thing is, playing an MMO doesn't mean you need to interact with others. It just so happens that's the preferred option of the playing the game, at least according to the developers.

Warframe, Path of Exile, Dauntless, even Monster Hunter World (sort of) all qualify as MMOs in the sense that the game can contain upwards of several hundred people at once. The difference between those games and "traditional" MMOs like TERA is that you're not forced to party with a bunch of knobs - on both sides - for the sake of "lol go and be social" (which is why I have mixed feelings about the reworked storyline and the leveling dungeons therein, odd as that is considering it's exactly what I wanted).

This seems pretty important these days considering that a few people in this very thread that view that sociability as little more than a means to an end ("Just join a guild./Just make friends."). I've been on both sides of that and it's not a good feeling, I tell ya.

Jesus this thread turned into another joke overnight

@CornishRex said:
Jesus this thread turned into another joke overnight

Really, it became a joke the moment someone said "lol u got kicked git gud scrub" way back on page 1.

And that somehow not only invalidated the rest of the review (which I personally think is spot-on), but started this huge debate on player skill and game knowledge.

TERA PC - General Discussion#74 Nopi10/09/2019, 01:10 PM

My conclusion is still the same as a few years back. Both the dev and the players can do more if they want the game to get new, staying members. MMOs were to be done in a group, but companies saw that they could get some money from single-player-gaming minded people, and thus there's solo content. The problem with me is that the solo part of the game is incomplete and requires party play to gear up to reach the rest. I assume this is intended in order to try and eventually convince solo players to start playing in parties as well. But the whole placing on where solo and party content is have pretty much blurred the lines and confused the sense of the game, making the whole experience a roller coaster of content you MUST do to progress but some is solo and some is party. Many MMOs are like this so this isn't a Tera only problem.

The particular problem with Tera is when people have to do the party sections of the game and they are both used to easy pre-65 content and the lack of in game instructions. Then they meet with people who already know the content and want to be done with it quickly. A dedicated new player can and will find ample success in this game right now. But not everyone joining the game at this age is willing to do more than what the game itself tells them to do. And because people are people, some veterans will get tired and become toxic towards the non dedicated, and will rue the day they were forced into an IMS with a "lazy" player.

In the end, if you want to eliminate 95% of the toxic behavior and salt in this game, shut down IMS. If you want to eliminate 100% of it, shut down the game.

Im lazy and I run both end-game PvE and PvP, I dont mind teaching new players mechanics and I never kick people from PvP (or PvE) if I can help it. I don't think its everyone, but there are indeed some people that "want to only run with the best", I tend to try to avoid those kinds of people though and play for fun

If you're going into a party for a dungeon you've never done before you should it least skim a guide for important details. Some mechanics in the game can just straight up kill you or your teammates if you're doing whatever you want and then they gotta use items to revive or get locked out from playing. It's just how some dungeons in this game are. You cant blame the team for getting upset at these things. However LFG exists where you can tag things like anyone welcome or experienced players only. I know tagging requirements in a LFG can be a slower queue than IMS but you also have to understand when your teammates arent specified you will get a variety of random people who often will feel they dont owe you anything. So expect it and be ready for it. It's just a trade off and part of IMS you shouldnt get salty about. Wait for LFG or do IMS and take what you get. And guilds do exist specifically for casual or serious players so joining them for dungeons helps. Also just saving in game friends you feel you can play more with. Tldr: Everyones to blame if they expect anything of others in IMS as you gotta know most people suck and you are also to blame for inconveniencing people if you are the the one neglecting a quick solo run through or a guide skim for life or death mechanics. Whatever happens though try being polite to your party to keep the game alive. Also if people arent nice to you then again most people suck and the world isnt nice. Dont let it get to you and play the game if you enjoy it. If you arent it's time to move on to whatever does make you happy. People being "mean" shouldnt influence you so much.

well I already let my solution separate the elitist community from the rest of the players with a separate server.

There is not even a problem in the progress of the game understand this.
problem and the elitist community that isn't letting newbies learn how the game works.

Only by this topic is already in the face that the novice and Casual community they can't stand the elitist community.
and the same with the elitist community they can't stand the casual and novice community.

separate this 2 by server instead of stay here in this useless conversation.

@PP597W94LA said:
well I already let my solution separate the elitist community from the rest of the players with a separate server.

There is not even a problem in the progress of the game understand this.
problem and the elitist community that isn't letting newbies learn how the game works.

Only by this topic is already in the face that the novice and Casual community they can't stand the elitist community.
and the same with the elitist community they can't stand the casual and novice community.

separate this 2 by server instead of stay here in this useless conversation.

There is no need to separate though. Elitists already play inside their own statics and guilds. Some people in the more skilled community (it's sort of a rarity though but I've seen it happen) do let newbies learn how the game works, if you're open to learning and getting good they'll help you. If you want to stay casual the actual elitists will not bother you because they do not use IMS. There are also plenty of casual guilds you can join that will gladly help a new player grow and learn.
What you want to separate is the newbies from the as*holes in ims which is not an easy task.
You seem to think anyone casual is automatically a good person and innocent, which is simply not true. I often offer advice in ims and try to help people that are learning and sometimes people brush me off or act offended. People that kick from ims are not elitsts in most cases, they're either people that can't carry a run and thus are not good themselves, egomaniacs or simply disheartened and annoyed people that already went through a few hours of wiping in which case you can't blame them for kicking. Also, a new player should not learn dungeons in ims as I said earlier, there are plenty other ways to learn and have a good time without getting kicked or "harassed" by "elitists".

Separating the players when the game is already half dead is an insanely bad solution not only because absolutely nothing would be solved by it but because new people should just learn to use things other than ims. Why do you act like ims is the only way to learn and do dungeons? I'd really like to know because everyone in the thread seems to imply that with their posts.

Elitism 101:
1. Kicking players that do not know mechanics nor basic english.
2. Kicking players with incorrect crystals.
3. Kicking players without damage. (No dps meter required, able to notice if, for example, a sorcerer is casting fireball continuously.)
4. Kicking players unable to tank.
5. Kicking players unable to heal.
6. Etc.
Basically, just spend 1h+ in a single dungeon for a possible disband.

Been there, done that.
Not everyone is obligated to carry.

TERA PC - General Discussion#80 Fainall10/10/2019, 02:14 AM

@Aluh said:
What a bunch of cry babies, no wonder people don't Q for dungeons anymore, have to hold hands with them now a days.

And you don't think using a guide on how to do a dungeon isn't hand holding? All that a guide does is give you a walk through...it's a spoiler, a cheat...it doesn't mean you need to think and figure anything out on your own. Not to mention all the supposed "awesome players" who use third party programs that have it pop up on the screen exactly what they are supposed to do next. You haven't figured anything out on your own. You haven't learned this stuff, someone else learned it for you and you did what they told you to do. Stand here, shoot this, dodge that...

Wait what
Reading guides equates to cheating now? Damn.
TERA PC - General Discussion#82 Christin10/10/2019, 11:11 AM

@Viennoiserie said:
Wait what
Reading guides equates to cheating now? Damn.

Skipped over most of the rantings, but just had to add a little something to your cute replies. Don't even try to understand any of it, because it's nothing more than a bunch of adults acting like a bunch of spoiled children. They are the very reason EME and BHS allow players to kick in the first place. People work hard to create guides that these people are simply too lazy to bother to read. All they come up with is excuses and more excuses. I wish when I started, I could have been as lazy as them and not looked anything up, because I thought I was too good to be bothered with learning anything on my own. However, I am an adult and tend to act like one.

I do find it funny at how they keep calling everyone "elites" while literally stomping up and down and stating that they are simply too good to be bothered to learn a dungeon, and those so called "elites" should be eager to hand-hold them through. I've never been in such support of so called "elites" as I am now. Actually, I feel so sorry for them, that they have to put up with such spoiled-acting players.

In fact, this thread is a perfect reason why EME staff don't even bother to come to the forums anymore. No one bothers to give them much if any praise when they do good, and all that many here do is trash and have righteous meltdowns over the silliest of things. Yeah, demand they ban people for kicking players that demand to be carried. LOL Good luck with that.

Okay, someone please help me with something.

I shouldn't need to read a guide just to play the game, and Styx (Stix?) mentions this in the video (around the 5:03 mark)! Let people play the game and learn on their own terms. People don't want to be carried (well, no where near as many as this thread would want you to believe) - let them make mistakes. Let them learn from those mistakes. As I said before, a guide should, ideally, come into play only when a person can't solve a problem on their own (and even that is debatable - if there's someone more experienced in my party, why should I not ask them for a tip or trick here and there?).

Is that REALLY so hard to understand?! Someone, anyone, please help me make sense of this.


Query: For you perfectionists: why are you not running statics if you're so worried about sub-optimal runs? That should be common [filtered] sense for you guys! You're willingly putting yourselves in unfavorable situations and then getting upset that you're in an unfavorable situation.

The lack of nuance and self-awareness in this thread is [filtered] amazing. And all because dude said he got kicked from a leveling dungeon that he was trying to learn.

TERA PC - General Discussion#84 Fainall10/10/2019, 01:14 PM

@Viennoiserie said:
Wait what
Reading guides equates to cheating now? Damn.

It's not cheating, it's just what a walk through used to be called...a spoiler or a cheat because you aren't figuring something out for yourself. But using third party programs is cheating. I did a dungeon with a guy and he and I both said we had never done it before when we went in. He was calling out what is next on discord though. I asked him how he knew what was coming up if he had never done it before, he said it told him on the screen. I said where...he said I have a program that tells me what to do.

@SageWindu said:
Okay, someone please help me with something.

I shouldn't need to read a guide just to play the game, and Styx (Stix?) mentions this in the video (around the 5:03 mark)! Let people play the game and learn on their own terms. People don't want to be carried (well, no where near as many as this thread would want you to believe) - let them make mistakes. Let them learn from those mistakes. As I said before, a guide should, ideally, come into play only when a person can't solve a problem on their own (and even that is debatable - if there's someone more experienced in my party, why should I not ask them for a tip or trick here and there?).

Is that REALLY so hard to understand?! Someone, anyone, please help me make sense of this.


Query: For you perfectionists: why are you not running statics if you're so worried about sub-optimal runs? That should be common [filtered] sense for you guys! You're willingly putting yourselves in unfavorable situations and then getting upset that you're in an unfavorable situation.

The lack of nuance and self-awareness in this thread is [filtered] amazing. And all because dude said he got kicked from a leveling dungeon that he was trying to learn.

Bruh. How many times have I repeated that it's fine to learn on your own terms but don't expect everyone to let you learn from your mistakes for hours on end in IMS. IMS is not the place to explore, like I said, guild and lfg learning runs are a place where you can do it. Is THAT so hard to understand? I always help players, even in ims, if they say they're new. I'm never going to be the one to initiate a kick, and if I agree to a kick it's going to be after a couple of wipes and me apologizing since I'm a wuss. But even so the nice thing to do would be to clear with like minded individuals that have the same goals. I might be happy to help but what about the other 3 people in the party? Just be considerate and look at things from another persons perspective. I feel like I'm shouting into a void in this thread because everyone is still insisting IMS is the only way to do things and it's the end all be all in this game, when it's clearly not. So please, can we stop acting like it is. This thread is ridiculous because everyone is bickering about a dumb problem that has so many easy solutions I'm really failing to understand why this is happening.

TERA PC - General Discussion#86 Fainall10/10/2019, 02:20 PM

In the past 36 hours, this thread has really changed my opinion of players in this game. I have come to the realization that without guides and third party programs, there would be a whole lot less "pro" players. I am not sure some could even figure out dungeon mechs without guides. If all those suddenly vanished you would have to rely on others more.

@CornishRex I don't think anyone is saying they have to use IMS, it's just that in the video that is what he touched on so it became a topic for this particular conversation. I don't use it all the time, but sometimes I do. And when you do, you get what you get. Now for me, if I go into a dungeon I don't know very well or haven't done at all from IMS I always tell the party right up front and say if you don't want to deal with that feel free to kick me before we get started. Because I DO think about other people in the game and I DO realize it's a concerted effort in a party and not just all about me. I also do silly stuff like bring pots in case we don't have a stellar healer and things like that.

This thread is becoming cyclic and may be locked sooner or later.

This isn't an issue we're going to resolve in this thread anyway. Suffice it to say, EME is not going to split the servers into "elitists" and "casuals," and even if they did it wouldn't solve the problem with IMS. And the issue with IMS is essentially a sort of cultural issue. Some people feel that veteran players should be accommodating to new players' learning process in order to encourage more people to enter the game (and, if you IMS, you get what you get; want guaranteed performance, make a static). Some people feel that new players should be accommodating to veteran players so as to value their time (so, if you IMS, expect to play well; want a learning party, make a static). And in the case of TERA, as an older game, the balance shifted so there are more veterans than new players, which is resulting in this spiral that (combined with the game's own systems) is making the game progressively less welcoming to new players (by placing more burden on the new players to catch up in knowledge and skill with veterans with insufficient in-game tools to get there).

Like I said, we won't resolve it here because both points of view have some validity and you can't force an attitude change across the board. Only the game developers can really change the underlying systems to try to address this disparity, but it's not a simple thing for them to fix either (plus, since it's a cultural thing, it may be that other markets aren't having the same degree of issue).

I will say that part of the problem is that this issue is polarizing, so it's hard to meet in the middle -- but I guess story of our times...

@CornishRex
To that I ask why do I NEED to join a guild just to "explore"? Why do I NEED to go through all these extra steps when all I want to do is play the game, enjoy the challenge, and enjoy the challenge of OVERCOMING that challenge? Why do I NEED to look up guides, videos, blogs, stream clips, and so on? And even then, no one has any guarantee that the run will be any better for it.

Really, from all this back and forth between the various people in this thread, it seems to be an issue with the design ethos of MMOs at large at odds with how the average player wants to conduct their sessions (I think someone brought that up earlier?). We've all been in situations where we can't do our favorite dungeons because our usual running mates weren't online and the risks of finding a replacement outweighed the rewards. An easy way to fix this would be to retune the dungeons to have scaling difficulties; that way, a person who's not very sociable can still enjoy the game on their own and not be hounded by the community about "gitting gud". 2-man Rift's Edge Hard - let's go. :smiley:

Aside: Man, these forums are dildoes.

best thing to do and make a server for "casual" and another for "elitist"

any changes you make to the server will make one side angry right?

Making the game easier will make elitists angry because the game has no challenge.

Making the game harder will make casuals angry because the difficulty is insane.

just make the server "casual" easy for players to enjoy the game content "

and makes the "elitist" server difficult for players to have a challenge worth their time.

TERA PC - General Discussion#90 Aluh10/10/2019, 05:34 PM

If eme made a casual server, no one would play on it, you so called "casuals" would eventually get bored of the game and quit making eme lose profit, i understand new players are what keeps the game going, but if you separate new players from veterans most of the casuals will quit, casuals come and go, but veterans keep the game running, while you can lleisurely enjoy ur casual gameplay.

@counterpoint
Remember, this all started from Styx saying he was kicked from a LEVELING dungeon for being NEW.

Again, KICKED from a LEVELING DUNGEON for being NEW.

I already think it would be the opposite nobody would play on the elitist server because it is very toxic

@SageWindu said:
@CornishRex
To that I ask why do I NEED to join a guild just to "explore"? Why do I NEED to go through all these extra steps when all I want to do is play the game, enjoy the challenge, and enjoy the challenge of OVERCOMING that challenge? Why do I NEED to look up guides, videos, blogs, stream clips, and so on? And even then, no one has any guarantee that the run will be any better for it. It's better to just assume the worst, so then if it happens, you can just roll with it and continue on (mostly) unhindered (hell, the most fun I've had was a TS run where EVERYTHING went to crap. We didn't wipe, but man was it hilarious).

Really, from all this back and forth between the various people in this thread, it seems to be an issue with the design ethos of MMOs at large being at odds with how the average player wants to conduct their sessions (I think someone brought that up earlier?). We've all been in situations where we can't do our favorite dungeons because our usual running mates weren't online and the risks of finding a replacement outweighed the rewards. An easy way to fix this would be to retune the dungeons to have scaling difficulties; that way, a person who's not very sociable can still enjoy the game on their own and not be hounded by the community about "gitting gud". 2-man Rift's Edge Hard - let's go. :smiley:

Aside: Man, these forums are dildoes.

You need to find like minded individuals because this is an mmo that requires teamwork and group coordination, it's not a solo game. Guides are not needed if you don't want them. It's not an extra step, it's literally what this genre is about. Hence the M and the M and the O lol. Everything else countepoint pretty much explained perfectly.

@SageWindu said:
@counterpoint
Remember, this all started from Styx saying he was kicked from a LEVELING dungeon for being NEW.

Again, KICKED from a LEVELING DUNGEON for being NEW.

Yes, I personally think that's a ridiculous end-result and is absolutely hurting the game's long-term growth potential (as it impacted these people), wherever the "fault" lies. I actually passed this video along to EME staff and noted that specific point: the transition from leveling content to end-game has a wall that many new players don't cross due in part to design and part to player toxicity. Ultimately, player behavior is driven in large part (though not exclusively) by the game design, so the game designers ultimately have to make a game that encourages the kinds of behaviors they intend. Of course, the trouble with this is that is that player behavior is also cultural, so the way players approach things like IMS might be very different in Korea than it is here. That's why they have to be aware of the cultural differences and the impact, and change the game accordingly to take that into account. Whether they will or can... well, that's another story, obviously.

I definitely don't think the situation is okay as is, but it's also a complicated issue. Predicting the impact of game design decisions on human behavior is one of the most advanced (and I think interesting) aspects of multiplayer game design theory. I hope they'll look at it seriously.

Most "elitists" use scripts and 3rd party programs to maximize their dps to the fullest, even if it requires cheating. I have seen it and heard it in Discord guild voice chats... They eat and breath Tera and accept no other than the best of the best in parties.

no ty...

That being said, ignore and block them. Just log on, and have a good time and then log out. You do not need HO to enjoy Tera. I enjoy playing mid tier dungeons more and I am full +9 SC.
The low and mid tier dungeons have many more people that are generally much nicer and more respectful.

Also, to be honest, the people who are not from the USA are the best to party up with because of the general respect. Most all of the toxic people I have encountered are entitled Americans with horrible attitudes.

Been playing since 2013 off and on.
TERA PC - General Discussion#96 Christin10/10/2019, 10:18 PM

@counterpoint said:

@SageWindu said:
@counterpoint
Remember, this all started from Styx saying he was kicked from a LEVELING dungeon for being NEW.

Again, KICKED from a LEVELING DUNGEON for being NEW.

Yes, I personally think that's a ridiculous end-result and is absolutely hurting the game's long-term growth potential (as it impacted these people), wherever the "fault" lies. I actually passed this video along to EME staff and noted that specific point: the transition from leveling content to end-game has a wall that many new players don't cross due in part to design and part to player toxicity. Ultimately, player behavior is driven in large part (though not exclusively) by the game design, so the game designers ultimately have to make a game that encourages the kinds of behaviors they intend. Of course, the trouble with this is that is that player behavior is also cultural, so the way players approach things like IMS might be very different in Korea than it is here. That's why they have to be aware of the cultural differences and the impact, and change the game accordingly to take that into account. Whether they will or can... well, that's another story, obviously.

I definitely don't think the situation is okay as is, but it's also a complicated issue. Predicting the impact of game design decisions on human behavior is one of the most advanced (and I think interesting) aspects of multiplayer game design theory. I hope they'll look at it seriously.

At least with the current system, they keep veterans and players willing to learn some of the dungeon on their own. Maybe if veteran players have rookies on their team, they shouldn't lose adventure coins or something like that. Maybe the dungeon could be adjusted or extra/special loot added whenever there is a rookie on the team. Something that would reward veteran players for taking the time and energy to educate new players. The main problem is that players unwilling to learn anything on their own aren't going to change for end game dungeons if they are being hand held through leveling dungeons. Plus, they are the ones that end up complaining that the game is too easy whenever they do get walked through dungeons, so it's just a no win situation. If you really like the game, you're going to take the extra time to learn dungeons and keep at it until you get there. If you aren't really into Tera, you're just going to make excuse after excuse on why it's not new player friendly and doesn't accommodate new players and so on. Lets face it, most of the ones demanding that they shouldn't be expected to work or learn anything on their own are the same ones that visit the forums daily to trash EME or Tera in general. So, obviously, they aren't into the game enough to want to learn.

explain how the new players will like the tera endgame being that the elitists are kicking them and not letting the new players have tested the endgame to see will it like it or not?

By the logic of whatever a new player will play until the endgame tests the dg ve be the community of the game is big and friendly then they will invest more time and money in the game.

plus tera is a media player community that is not very friendly.

summary tera have a great game with a toxic endgame community.

and having a toxic endgame community is already a failure for mmo, it would be better if the game was infested with hack than toxic player, that at least - the hack could just ban them from the game

I see here elitist writing for the new player looking for "Guide"

more so far from 90 comment here nor one of the elitist puts a link to some "Guide" (2019 updater) here in this topic.

I can said that these guide is hard to find isn't it?

TERA PC - General Discussion#99 Nopi10/11/2019, 07:25 PM

One thing I see from the end game structure is that veterans and rookies do the same dungeons. Rookies need them to progress, obvious, but veterans do them because they also get resources from them aside what they get from their gear range dungeons. This mixing, in theory, would have been a good way to have newbies and veterans working together and knowing each other. But due to the nature the community has turned into, this is where most of the toxic behavior happens.

So, what if the system is reworked in a way veterans have no need to do lower end dungeons at all? What if instead, veterans get a different kind of reward (cosmetics? custom titles? mentor status?) for doing these low end dungeons with newbies without having to worry about their own progression? This may keep veterans who don't want to mingle with newer, lower geared players doing their own stuff unaffected, while also rewarding veterans willing to help these players grow.

Now, I'm retired. I don't play anymore. So if the devs are already doing something in this direction, please let it be known here, and let also be known if such a direction is viable or if something can be done without wasting too many dev resources. Because in the end, any ideas posted here would require dev resources if they are implemented.

As for leveling duneons and people being kicked from them, is that common nowadays? I've never been kicked from any 20-64 dungeon, nor from any starter 65 place. Though I used to be helpful by already knowing them and even giving tips if others were struggling. Then again, at least in my time, it was very uncommon to see a kick at all, even through wipes. So is the community being yet even more toxic? Or are these actually isolated cases blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument?

@Nopi said:
As for leveling duneons and people being kicked from them, is that common nowadays? I've never been kicked from any 20-64 dungeon, nor from any starter 65 place. Though I used to be helpful by already knowing them and even giving tips if others were struggling. Then again, at least in my time, it was very uncommon to see a kick at all, even through wipes. So is the community being yet even more toxic? Or are these actually isolated cases blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument?

It's not common in the slightest. I've leveled more than a few characters just recently and I encountered 0 toxicity, let alone the 50 chars I've leveled in the past. I'm honestly really weirded out by mmobytes experience - not just because he got kicked but because he found out the reasons for getting kicked. More often than not when people kick a newbie (with bad gear or crystals or whatever) they're going to do it without announcing. Honestly this intrigues me so much I'd like to personally ask him. Who kicks people for gear in leveling dungeons? What mechanics are there to get kicked for in leveling dungeons? Honestly either they're really unlucky or idk maybe they got kicked for afking and just came to a conclusion that because the endgame is toxic from perhaps their past experiences the leveling process is too, either way something's fishy to me lmao

That aside I also rarely see kicks nowadays, every glsh run I've done in the past few months in ims had a few learning people and we would always go through at least 3 wipes on last boss while I explained stuff and the other experienced players endured and did their best. GVH as well. And these are the highest ilvl dungeons. I really see it rarely but I'll just chalk it up to luck since so many people in this thread are adamant in their belief that the endgame is ~super toxic and elitist~. And I'm playing on EU, the region that in my experience at least, has more toxicity.

TERA PC - General Discussion#101 SageWindu10/11/2019, 09:19 PM

@CornishRex said:

@SageWindu said:
@CornishRex
To that I ask why do I NEED to join a guild just to "explore"? Why do I NEED to go through all these extra steps when all I want to do is play the game, enjoy the challenge, and enjoy the challenge of OVERCOMING that challenge? Why do I NEED to look up guides, videos, blogs, stream clips, and so on? And even then, no one has any guarantee that the run will be any better for it. It's better to just assume the worst, so then if it happens, you can just roll with it and continue on (mostly) unhindered (hell, the most fun I've had was a TS run where EVERYTHING went to crap. We didn't wipe, but man was it hilarious).

Really, from all this back and forth between the various people in this thread, it seems to be an issue with the design ethos of MMOs at large being at odds with how the average player wants to conduct their sessions (I think someone brought that up earlier?). We've all been in situations where we can't do our favorite dungeons because our usual running mates weren't online and the risks of finding a replacement outweighed the rewards. An easy way to fix this would be to retune the dungeons to have scaling difficulties; that way, a person who's not very sociable can still enjoy the game on their own and not be hounded by the community about "gitting gud". 2-man Rift's Edge Hard - let's go. :smiley:

Aside: Man, these forums are dildoes.

You need to find like minded individuals because this is an mmo that requires teamwork and group coordination, it's not a solo game. Guides are not needed if you don't want them. It's not an extra step, it's literally what this genre is about. Hence the M and the M and the O lol. Everything else countepoint pretty much explained perfectly.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, then. From where I'm sitting, there is nothing in this game or the next that says it is mandatory for me to party up with others, friend or otherwise.

Which is (one of) the point(s) I've been making - MMOs prefer one to party up (i.e. dungeons), but they do not have to if they so wish. And thus, why isn't the game better tuned to accommodate that? Hell, my very first character I maxed out exactly by playing solo and doing story missions, since, in general, I don't like people enough to want to go out of my way and interact with them. But that's just me.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of the term "MMO" as that's just going to open another can of worms that this place doesn't need.

TERA PC - General Discussion#102 Nopi10/11/2019, 10:55 PM

@CornishRex I've also just read something I didn't know. Most leveling dungeons in Tera now have solo story versions at least up to Manaya's Core. I'm starting to believe the video poster mistook any level 65 dungeon as a "leveling" dungeon, or something more sinister. Guess someone should ask him exactly which dungeon he was kicked from.

TERA PC - General Discussion#103 StixByte10/12/2019, 12:31 AM
> @CornishRex said:
> (Quote)
> It's not common in the slightest. I've leveled more than a few characters just recently and I encountered 0 toxicity, let alone the 50 chars I've leveled in the past. I'm honestly really weirded out by mmobytes experience - not just because he got kicked but because he found out the reasons for getting kicked. More often than not when people kick a newbie (with bad gear or crystals or whatever) they're going to do it without announcing. Honestly this intrigues me so much I'd like to personally ask him. Who kicks people for gear in leveling dungeons? What mechanics are there to get kicked for in leveling dungeons? Honestly either they're really unlucky or idk maybe they got kicked for afking and just came to a conclusion that because the endgame is toxic from perhaps their past experiences the leveling process is too, either way something's fishy to me lmao
>
> That aside I also rarely see kicks nowadays, every glsh run I've done in the past few months in ims had a few learning people and we would always go through at least 3 wipes on last boss while I explained stuff and the other experienced players endured and did their best. GVH as well. And these are the highest ilvl dungeons. I really see it rarely but I'll just chalk it up to luck since so many people in this thread are adamant in their belief that the endgame is ~super toxic and elitist~. And I'm playing on EU, the region that in my experience at least, has more toxicity.

Hey! I signed up to the forums specifically to answer questions people have pertaining to my experiences.

How I knew why I got kicked is because I did the entire leveling journey with my wife MrsStix who both times asked why I got kicked. She was Priest - so they never wanted to kick her but I was a replaceable DPS.
TERA PC - General Discussion#104 PaleDim10/12/2019, 01:02 AM

Can you tell us which dungeon(s) you were kicked from?

Personally I've only been kicked once. I think its Manayas Core that has the unavoidable debuff that deals like 300% your max hp total overtime, cant be cleansed, and keeps going upon resurrection or something stupid like that. I was dumb and didnt have items and the Priest wasnt healing me. I got locked out of the dungeon when I died then kicked. Could've been avoided if I was smarter going in but i forgot to stock up. I obviously dont blame them for that haha.
TERA PC - General Discussion#106 Fainall10/12/2019, 03:41 AM

@Nopi said:
One thing I see from the end game structure is that veterans and rookies do the same dungeons. Rookies need them to progress, obvious, but veterans do them because they also get resources from them aside what they get from their gear range dungeons. This mixing, in theory, would have been a good way to have newbies and veterans working together and knowing each other. But due to the nature the community has turned into, this is where most of the toxic behavior happens.

So, what if the system is reworked in a way veterans have no need to do lower end dungeons at all? What if instead, veterans get a different kind of reward (cosmetics? custom titles? mentor status?) for doing these low end dungeons with newbies without having to worry about their own progression? This may keep veterans who don't want to mingle with newer, lower geared players doing their own stuff unaffected, while also rewarding veterans willing to help these players grow.

Now, I'm retired. I don't play anymore. So if the devs are already doing something in this direction, please let it be known here, and let also be known if such a direction is viable or if something can be done without wasting too many dev resources. Because in the end, any ideas posted here would require dev resources if they are implemented.

As for leveling duneons and people being kicked from them, is that common nowadays? I've never been kicked from any 20-64 dungeon, nor from any starter 65 place. Though I used to be helpful by already knowing them and even giving tips if others were struggling. Then again, at least in my time, it was very uncommon to see a kick at all, even through wipes. So is the community being yet even more toxic? Or are these actually isolated cases blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument?

Let me tell you what happened yesterday. I was leveling a char...and I went to Sky Garden. A dungeon I have done on many many chars. I ran into one room with the other two people and it's one that no one has ever bypassed before. (Not the one people usually bypass.) Suddenly I am dead and the tank is just screaming at me. I said why did you leave me there? She said I never do those mobs and if you die again I will kick you. As if it's somehow my fault I can't read her mind that SHE never does those mobs. I have never once seen anyone bypass those. So yeah I think it can happen in leveling dungeons. While I didn't get kicked I was threatened with it because she was in such a hurry and didn't bother to say a word about anything let alone what she wanted to do or expected of rest of the party.

TERA PC - General Discussion#107 Aluh10/12/2019, 04:25 AM

pics or it didnt happen

TERA PC - General Discussion#108 Nopi10/13/2019, 05:50 AM

@StixByte Hello. Mind posting, if you remember, which dungeons you were kicked from? If you don't remember the names, at least can you tell if they were pre-65 or post 65? I ask because people who have been around for awhile most likely see level 65 dungeons as part of the main end game grind, while anything below it is considered the actual leveling and anything above being min maxing. Newbies and long returning players on the other hand would see levels 65-70 as an extension of the actual leveling, despite the exp differences they have. And thus for these people, getting kicked from a level 65 dungeon would count as getting kicked from a "leveling" dungeon.

TERA PC - General Discussion#109 Jerichow10/13/2019, 07:49 AM

To be honest a part of me thinks part of this problem can be attributed to the speed at which people level in this game.

Without Elite or any other boosters, and just with the 'Joy of Partying' buff - you're getting what, 400% extra XP in dungeons? I haven't leveled an alt in quite some time but assuming not much, if anything has changed then you're looking at being able to casually instance match a character from your first BOL all the way up to cracking 65 in probably 6-8 hours as long as you're getting queues to pop on a regular basis. For an RPG that's just ludicrous.

For a game like Tera which has a much more difficult and steep learning curve for actual high end gameplay, it's impossible to misunderstand part of why a veteran player leveling his however-many'eth alt would be annoyed that a person only just a few hours into this game from their very first login isn't holding aggro as a Lancer.

I remember when I first started, playing 4-6 hours a day just casually going about the game doing quests until I ran into dungeons, running said dungeon a few times, then questing through until the next dungeon, it took me well over a week to hit 65. I think slowing leveling back down to a rate like that for people to actually have time to learn how to play their class would fix more things than it would ever come close to harming.

I understand that EME has a vested interest in having as many people as possible at Lv 65+ because people at the 'end game' are significantly more likely to spend money in the cash shop - I get that... But I would genuinely wonder if a few quick bucks from new players before getting chased out by a hissing mob of angry elitists is worth more than changing things back and giving said newer players more time to actually learn how to play the game before tossing them to the wolves of the remaining endgame community.

I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult either, to remove the JOP buff from dungeons, and heck if it's just money EME is concerned over, they can just add it to the cash shop or replace the current Lv60 scroll with 1, 3, and 7 day 400% XP boosters - that way anyone looking to blitzkrieg a character to endgame would be able to have that buff and be at cap in a few hours, and newer players who are actually interested in playing through what story this game has can do so at a much more reasonable pace.

Maybe I'm just naive to how new players are these days, but given that I had a friend tell me one time after getting to 65 in 2 days of casual 'couple hours a day' playing, that he was shocked that he was already at level-cap, I'm inclined to believe he's probably not the only one. He got to 65 and still had no idea that abilities chained, let alone know how/when to chain them during fights so that he could maximize his damage. Heck, he barely even understood front/side/back damage, and only had proper crystals because I gave them to him to use. Perhaps it's just me but I think a step in the right direction to fix this would be to slow leveling down a bit so that new players can actually have some time to learn how to play their class before hitting end-game and having to match up with people who have been playing this game for years and have unrealistic expectations of said new players.

Fine really you have every right to never party with someone beneath you; but please then stop whinning about how your game is dying.

Because you cant have it both ways. You can Have a tiny, ever diminishing population of Elitists, or you can welcome new players into your game; but when you boot someone thats an invitation to leave the game, not just the party. So hand out all those invites you want; and when your game dies remember it was YOU that killed it.

2014 player here and 100% agree with this. the elitist community is what killed the game off. turned away hella new potential players to the game. haven't played in a while but decided to check the forums due to the new area expansion. all the instant booting for having low gear scared off the new players. i still remember when it was quite prevalent in CS and FWC. and for really? looking up guides? how do u think guides were even made? lmao. someone had to run the dungeon first without any experience. how are people to learn without even given a chance?

@Fainall Oh thanks xD. I didnt know.
TERA PC - General Discussion#112 Christin10/14/2019, 11:21 AM

It doesn't matter if you're kicked from an end game dungeon or a "leveling" dungeon. Get over it already and move on. If you can't, don't do anymore dungeons. This thread has turned into some kind of witch hunt, and I guarantee people aren't going to be banned for kicking no matter how much others stomp up and down about it. There's nothing against the rules about kicking, and we're only getting one side of the story from all of these complaints. Yeah, I've made mistakes, and I've been kicked. However, I either worked on my toon more or read a guide telling me why I died. It's really not that complicated. If you want to do a lot of dungeons, find friends or get your current friends to play. Time to grow up a bit, stop calling everyone "elitist" for not wanting to hand-hold you or take the time through every part to make sure everyone knows what to do. If you're too lazy to look up guides or even try to learn mechs on your own, this game or dungeons aren't for you. It's as simple as that.

Y'all can say the game is dead, because you're not getting coddled, but it's obviously still pulling in plenty of cash. There's plenty of players out there willing to learn and join with the veteran players, play event or farming for whatever. All games start off heavily populated and end up with a lower population. The population isn't lowering just because the devs aren't following your instructions or demands.

Really, the only answer to this problem is to make the dungeons extremely easy, because people say they shouldn't be made to read guides. That means that all dungeons would need to remove mechs and be easy enough for children to do them. Is that really what you guys need? The dungeons dumbed-down for you, because you can't be bothered to learn anything before hand? Seems like that really is the only thing that will satisfy most of you. Sad but true.

TERA PC - General Discussion#113 SageWindu10/14/2019, 02:21 PM

@Christin said:
Really, the only answer to this problem is to make the dungeons extremely easy, because people say they shouldn't be made to read guides. That means that all dungeons would need to remove mechs and be easy enough for children to do them. Is that really what you guys need? The dungeons dumbed-down for you, because you can't be bothered to learn anything before hand? Seems like that really is the only thing that will satisfy most of you. Sad but true.

And I say yet again, why is it almost mandatory for someone to do advanced research for something they don't know exists? You guys are demanding people to look for answers to questions they don't have. How does that make sense?

Also, how and/or why do you guys keep going to these extremes? "lol make the game into supes EZ mode for babies lol" Yet another honest question: where are you guys getting this from because I haven't seen it in this thread or the next except from the people who keep saying "just read a guide/join a guild/make friends lol".

You know what, I think it's time for this thread (or at least this specific topic) to be put out to pasture as so many people (hell, myself included) are just talking in circles and it doesn't seem anyone's going to reach an agreement on anything anytime soon.

And to think, all Stix said (paraphrasing mine) was "I got kicked for being new." Then again, I really shouldn't be too surprised, given this place...

TERA PC - General Discussion#114 Nopi10/14/2019, 07:37 PM

I feel this thread should be moved on from, because I don't see any side really trying to understand the other side, much less trying to bargain a compromise of any sort. Those wanting to be efficient keep saying that the other side is lazy and only wants to be carried, even when told nobody has ever asked for a carry here. Those not wanting to read guides also fail to understand that the World does not spin just for them, and in a multiplayer environment, some compromises have to be made to accommodate everyone, and that self discovery and exploring may not be the best thing to do in a PuG as not everyone is sitting on the same page.

So really, I can only say what we have been saying. You want super efficient runs? Get a static. You want to explore and tackle the dungeon like it is a first time single player game? Get a static. Want to pug? You should be prepared for anything in there, and whatever you get, just take a deep breath and decide if it's best to stay or leave. In all instances, the least worth thing to do is to argue and fight in a place nobody will take you seriously.

As for the kicking itself, it's there to be used, and it's not only to kick people for foul behavior. It's there to also quickly deal with disagreements and it's the final statement saying someone doesn't want to play with you. So yeah, as far as I understand (me being currently on the sidelines), it's still not a reportable offense to kick someone for being new. It's not a reportable offense to even kick someone because the kicker didn't like something about the other player, even if it is something as silly as the race of the avatar (there was quite some anti elin xenophobia out there when I was active..), or whatever else. So yeah, someone underperforming in the eyes of another can be grounds for kicking. Another option is for them to leave the group if their opinion is outnumbered.

On the flip side, if youtubers like mmobyte want to say they were kicked from a leveling dungeon for being new, and they honestly believe that's really what happened, nobody has any reason to bark at him for it. It's his opinion and his watchers will see his statement and decide what to do with it. I doubt Tera will die because of his video, anyway.

TERA PC - General Discussion#115 Christin10/16/2019, 05:38 AM

I completely agree. It's time to move on and start appreciating everything that BHS and EME still do for the game, because they are still making big updates years later. I highly doubt most players thought that the game would still be bringing out large updates the way it is. People may not like all of the changes, but at least the game always seems to have something to work for whether it's grindy or not.

People can kick for whatever reason they want to kick. Obviously, if the other players agree, there is a good reason. If players just agree to the kick for no reason, that's on them. Some of you may act like you're so above the rest of us, but I don't doubt most of you have kicked players as well. Don't sit there and chastise me for stating an experienced MMO player crying about getting kicked all while stating over and over they didn't know anything about the dungeon is ridiculous. Sure they have a right to cry, but I also have a right to point out their complete hypocrisy.

I do get that people need a place to cry and vent. However, the irony that most complaining about being kicked will end up kicking others after they learn the dungeon is not lost. In fact, mostly all of you end up as kickers once you learn a dungeon and can pick out the players that have no clue as to what they are doing. Of course, you won't admit it, but yeah, it happens all of the time.

If you're new and don't feel you should read a guide or watch a video, simply say so in global. Surely all of the people here against kicking will step up and donate their time to help you learn the dungeon.

@Jerichow said:

I remember when I first started, playing 4-6 hours a day just casually going about the game doing quests until I ran into dungeons, running said dungeon a few times, then questing through until the next dungeon, it took me well over a week to hit 65. I think slowing leveling back down to a rate like that for people to actually have time to learn how to play their class would fix more things than it would ever come close to harming.

I'd rather just there be a more effective method of teaching players their classes than elevating them to max level more or less isolated from the actual demands of the game. Slowing down leveling wouldn't necessarily teach players to git gud it would just delay the inevitable train wreck of reality.
Having players invest time into leveling is good, but only when they're participating in the community while doing so. Elevating players to endgame content too rapidly makes them especially sensitive to rejection. The problem here is that there is no reason for the "elitist players" to address the issue of the noob's ignorance, the kick suffices to say that they're a noob and nobody cares how lost they are.

It's a leap of faith that the noob then must take that their woeful lack of preparation is only inexcusable because the preparation required is very simple and straightforward (EZ). Obviously this will appear very toxic to anyone not invested in the TERA community or interested in the eSwag of dungeon running, etc.

I wonder if it is too late for anyone who isn't already meta to gain anything from playing videogames.
What's the point in grinding when there's no end in sight?

As for the review I'm disappointed he didn't mention fishing or wait until this patch dropped.
My criticism of TERA would be that RNG isn't a very engaging when there is no apparent logic to it. Chance is a lot more fun when I can influence it.
RNG is also taken way too far in terms of gathering node distribution and mobs. There are inaccessible nodes/mobs that are spawned on the side of cliffslopes, stuff that never happened before in TERA.

Overall player generated content/self writing stories are completely absent from endgame. Everything is contrived and almost stale.

It is a good game with a bunch of instanced things to do, but none of it is connected and it just begs the question; why?
I get that I'm grinding for better gear. For more power.
There are niche things to grab my attention and hold my interest briefly, but it's all spiraling out of the scope of [filtered] I care about.
Cards! Great I can collect them. And...become more powerful.
They aren't instanced and rare or serve to duel like playing cards such as Pokemon. They're just a collectible.
Achievements galore. TERA has wonderful achievements but I'm starting to feel depersonalized by all the hours I've spent playing without feeling anything I can't find in the outside world. I could be spending my time going for adventures throughout the countryside or travelling.
Enhancement Points: just another system where More Is Better.
Advanced Skills: More Is Better
that's the curse of TERA. the only thing it seems to teach is that More Is Better.

problem solving is only engaged in figuring out what the game designers intend for me to do in order to get More and become Better.
once I've figured out the most economical grind I might as well turn my brain off and sink my time into it.

TERA PC - General Discussion#118 Serenade10/16/2019, 09:48 AM

@Christin said:
I completely agree. It's time to move on and start appreciating everything that BHS and EME still do for the game, because they are still making big updates years later. I highly doubt most players thought that the game would still be bringing out large updates the way it is. People may not like all of the changes, but at least the game always seems to have something to work for whether it's grindy or not.

People can kick for whatever reason they want to kick. Obviously, if the other players agree, there is a good reason. If players just agree to the kick for no reason, that's on them. Some of you may act like you're so above the rest of us, but I don't doubt most of you have kicked players as well. Don't sit there and chastise me for stating an experienced MMO player crying about getting kicked all while stating over and over they didn't know anything about the dungeon is ridiculous. Sure they have a right to cry, but I also have a right to point out their complete hypocrisy.

I do get that people need a place to cry and vent. However, the irony that most complaining about being kicked will end up kicking others after they learn the dungeon is not lost. In fact, mostly all of you end up as kickers once you learn a dungeon and can pick out the players that have no clue as to what they are doing. Of course, you won't admit it, but yeah, it happens all of the time.

If you're new and don't feel you should read a guide or watch a video, simply say so in global. Surely all of the people here against kicking will step up and donate their time to help you learn the dungeon.

I wan't going to post in this topic again, but this post is so much bs that I can't help but respond one last time.

It's like you actually ignored what everyone said for an entire topic and kept on pushing this narrative. People in this thread has brought up how no one - and that includes you, Christin - actually reads guides on leveling dungeons. I'd like you to even find a guide on something like Golden Labs, heck. I can't find the post anymore due to the forum search system, but I still very clearly remember you saying that you did Kallivan's without knowing the dungeon during a Starlyn event, and that's actually an end-game dungeon however low it is.

The whole thing about us kicking others when they learn the dungeon? As a veteran who has been here during the golden eras of TERA back in 2013-2015, I can tell you horror stories about the people we would find in stuff like Wonderholme (the final raid of its patch) and Rift's Edge (the second final raid of its patch). Both were made so that they can accommodate new players. I was actually running instances back then, and I've seen and complained to my guild about things like a sorcerer that stood in place spamming auto-attack over and over, not bother dodging when he missed mechanics and had bees on him. So he kissed the floor more often and contributed nothing to the raid. Despite the grumbling, we didn't even care to kick him, or the hundreds of other people that under-contributed to an instance. Heck, I've carried an entire party of 5 on Bathysmal Rise NM before, back when that was the end-game at the early days of the level 65 expansion (BHS was pretty bad on instance releases even back then).

I've taught people mechanics for those on Raid Chat before. Kelsaik Raid 20, when it first released, was constantly full of newbies and people explained mechanics at the start of every run that wasn't a guild run. People explained mechanics in Ravenous Gorge back when that actually mattered, and I remember hosting learning sessions on my priest where I would spend an hour letting new people get hands-on experience with it while I healed them and offered tips. Of course no one did this in true end-game instances; Level 60 Kelsaik's Nest, Manaya's Core, Abscess HM, Kelsaik 10-man, and the likes are legitimate hardest instances that people formed statics to clear. But every instance below them? Newbies abound, explaining mechanics everywhere, and minimal kicking.

Rather, when people want experienced people, they did a LFG with the "exp" specification and item levels. The ilvl requirements were often silly, granted, but it's nothing like what you are describing here. Contrary to what you may think, we actually did helped out newbies regularly back then. That was when TERA was booming and we had plenty of new players to breathe life into the games, for pretty obvious reasons.

"Most all of us end up as kickers"? Maybe that's what's happening now, which also coincides with the player pop being what it is. Maybe that's what you did, but don't attribute that to us. Some of us have seen the old days and know what it's like back then.

honestly it doesn't matter what update you have on tera.

When you have a toxic community, the update is rendered useless.

Just like this new update "Skywatch: Aerial Island" I sincerely give 1 month until this content becomes toxic and ends up destroying.

EME need to find a way to wipe out the toxic community before making any changes in the game.

@PP597W94LA said:
honestly it doesn't matter what update you have on tera.

When you have a toxic community, the update is rendered useless.

Just like this new update "Skywatch: Aerial Island" I sincerely give 1 month until this content becomes toxic and ends up destroying.

EME need to find a way to wipe out the toxic community before making any changes in the game.

calm down hitler

@CornishRex said:

@PP597W94LA said:
honestly it doesn't matter what update you have on tera.

When you have a toxic community, the update is rendered useless.

Just like this new update "Skywatch: Aerial Island" I sincerely give 1 month until this content becomes toxic and ends up destroying.

EME need to find a way to wipe out the toxic community before making any changes in the game.

calm down hitler

I think I'll use this invocation of Godwin's Law as the sign that the thread has run its course. This issue is not going to be solved easily anyway as it's very complex and involves both game design and player behavior.

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