TERA Online forum archive
TERA PC - General Discussion: Regarding the Terachic Store

I want to say i am VERY disappointed.

Just how much more EME, how many more times, do you need to be told, that you are doing things wrong, for you guys to understand? how many more times you have to keep making the same mistakes over and over, has your greed has won over you?
Dont you people realize, that keeping players accountable, translate into money? if thats what you are interested in?
Player count = money
Player trust = money

You have lost our trust, and certainly, the game is not as lively anymore, and yet, you keep pushing systems that cater to the human nature of "Wanting something" for your own profit.

The only real way to earn tokens for the terachic store, is by dismantling outfits you no longer need or want. But how do you get outfits? by spending REAL MONEY into the shop. You would argue that you can obtain outfits through the broker too without spending any real money, but the way it works now, who in their right mind would do that? Spend thousands of gold in costumes from the broker, only for a few tokens, that may turn out to be a huge profit loss, because again, THE RNG.

Taking the gamble? i guess you guys think this is a Casino? For such a low probability of getting one of those "premium" outfits from the boxes in the terachic store, no one would be so dumb as to gamble thousands of gold that may turn into an item thats worth a mere hundreds.

What "premium" items? Well, we do not know! because you still refuse, to this date, to give or make public drop chances, and item lists. A change that i hope, you will be FORCED to do once the loot box ban bill gets passed.

From my understanding, and from what i have seen in other players, one of such items is the Wintersilk Ribbon, a back accessory, THAT SHOULD HAD BEEN RELEASED WITH THE REST OF THE WINTERSILK DRESSES, like in the other regions such as EU and Japan.

Rumors i heard that the Dyable Dragon Armor is inside those boxes too, together with the rose colored Starglow weapons.

So, we spend money, a lot, in just buying costumes for dismantling, and we only get a chance, which we dont even know how much it is, to earn one of those cosmetics? Are you guys so out of touch with the community and the other regions that all you can see is money and not how uncomfortable the players are with every decision your current team takes? just how far your incompetence as a publisher can go?!

But well, i guess is pointless at this stage, to try to argue about it, because well of course, you guys at eme ditched the forums, an organized place to gather feedback, for Discord, an unorganized platform where people most of the times meme instead of being constructive.
Only one that may be looking at this may be @counterpoint and bless his soul that hes doing a far better job than any of the community team at EME, without getting paid a single cent.

Overall, i am highly disappointed at the current state of the terachic store, and the lack of transparency on this from the community team.

I fully agree with you.
But, unfortunately, it's profitable.
So it will not change.

Honestly, I get that you're angry, but you're shooting yourself in the head by taking this type of tone. If any staff actually do check this forum and decide to open your thread, the first thing they're going to read is your opening patronizing screed and say "nope." You're not making a great case that the forum is worth reading...

Anyway, this is not to defend the system, but this is what I know: This system was developed by BHS and deployed in all regions. What EME was able to control was the contents and the token price (within reason). Other regions also have exclusive items in the pool. In our region, as you noted (and everyone already realized), has the Dyeable Dragon Armor and the Crimson Frost weapon skins.

Someone on Discord mentioned the Wintersilk Ribbons today. I don't think this was an intended exclusive, but probably when they populated the pool they didn't realize/remember that it hadn't yet been sold. My opinion is that it should probably be sold separately, but they'll have to review and decide.

As for posting the odds for lootboxes, I can say that some individual staff have expressed favorable opinions about it, but as you probably know in any work environment these things are not decided that simply. I have continued to push for this for many years and will keep doing so, but again it's pointless to lecture people personally because this is a corporate decision that would impact all EME games. A combination of legislative, platform-maker, and customer pressure will, I believe, eventually cause this to change. I do think slow progress is being made, but I agree that it's frustrating. (My personal opinion is still that posting odds and having a failure cap should be the minimum bar for these types of systems.)

As one more side-note... EME no longer has a Community Team. Bear.Shoes still handle communication on websites, social media, etc. but the rest of the staff were reassigned to other roles. So... it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists. These aren't the old days where there were three community staff just on TERA PC alone.

In any case, the point about the Wintersilk Ribbons did come up, and someone else suggested there might be some other odd accessories that similarly ended up in the accessory pool despite not having been sold (so, AFAIK, probably "unintended" exclusives). Maybe they'll stay this way at this point or maybe they'll be sold separately... I have no idea. But the question was raised.

@Zoknahal said:
But well, i guess is pointless at this stage, to try to argue about it, because well of course, you guys at eme ditched the forums, an organized place to gather feedback, for Discord, an unorganized platform where people most of the times meme instead of being constructive.

This is why I don't bother providing detailed feedback (I was one of those that did that in other games I played). I mean the new product manager (Frank Johnson aka Tielwing) made that initial post of his here but then unsurprisingly didn't really follow through on actual community engagement. Not his fault either since a lot of these folks are having to do more with less. As per what counterpoint mentioned regarding there being no community team any longer, it seems earlier this year (looking at some of their LinkedIn), some folks "promoted" upwards (filling either associate or non-senior level product management positions; and if they were doing community management related tasks prior, are continuing to wear those hats on top of their newer responsibilities). Unfortunately, that approach has resulted in bare minimal engagement with the player community. As a result, the game is mostly being run with cycled events.

It's also why I stopped spending (I don't mind buying cosmetics in games like this but once they began pushing more towards the "cash grab" route, I really curbed my EMP purchases since last year) since the only thing that tends to work in sending an actual signal to most publishers management, is a trend of decreasing revenues (especially avg revenue per player), CCU's (daily/monthly average), retention, and whatever in-game metrics they use for determining how much EMP is being converted to gold (cash shop purchases then listed to the trade broker) since we aren't able to directly earn EMP via in-game methods. The accumulated login event the other month was a good one but I also realize putting something together like that takes time. Now with the daily calendar offline and no other daily "carrot on a stick" running, the chart must look like one of those huge chasm drops.

Bluehole/Krafton always had a "sink or swim" mentality with their subsidiaries. The original employees (from what used to be known as Bluehole Ginno) that worked on PUBG, made out like bandits when that raked in money (since their reward structure gives the originating subsidiary a bigger chunk of the bonuses). So what was once a small studio subsidiary ended up getting a new rebranding (PUBG Corp) as well as swanky new offices in Seoul. The biggest change with the corporate rebrand and it's effect on those in the Krafton Game Union is the ability now to share ideas and at least on the development side in Korea, resources (since Krafton's leadership wants to find the next PUBG with some of the new PC/console/mobile titles they've been working on). A:IR has far too much monetization ideas courtesy of Kakao Games investment (and thus publishing rights in KR/NA/EU) and seems to have once again run into some development hell problems after some issues were revealed with the revamped design (made to the one used in the 2017 KR CBT) during the Thai/SEA beta test earlier this year so I don't see that ending up being more than a niche title. Unfortunately, both TERA and A:IR share the same development studio subsidiary (still known as Bluehole) so we get some of the layers of RNG designs in the process (and isn't made any better when you actually have people that came from BDO pushing those sort of designs).

EME is in their own position as a publisher in that union so it doesn't surprise me a lot of decisions are being made based on $$$ metrics since I can see how TERA and Closers both have customers who spend a lot every month. EME also gets zero dibs on being directly involved with publishing some of the stuff they are releasing (like the two other Bluehole dev studio originated games; MISTOVER is being self-published and releasing on Steam/Nintendo Switch/PlayStation in early October while they self-published MiniLife on both Google Play and the App Store for iOS). So basically, they have to do whatever it takes to survive (doesn't mean I agree with how they are running things but I do get they are under pressure to perform).

@counterpoint Coincidentally, most of the better feedback, comes from harsh criticism. So i be damn shooting myself in the head, but if no one is gonna tell EME that they are taking things the wrong, way, then who will? All they are telling me with their decision to shift feedback gathering from their official media, to Discord, is that they just do not want to bother reading criticism that may help them in making better choices.

@LordMurasama I get that EME needs to survive, is a business after all, but a business doesnt survive on money alone. To get income, they need customers, us, and to get more income, they need to keep their customers happy and comfortable, which as publishers, they arent really doing that well now. They have to realize that not everything that comes from Korea, will be the best for the people in NA. The original EME team knew this, and while they took longer to bring patches, it was for the sake of localizing the content to fit more the NA community, instead of being a copy paste of the Korean TERA. Treeshark knew this the best, and worked hard to fix PvP.

@LordMurasama said:
I mean the new product manager (Frank Johnson aka Tielwing) made that initial post of his here but then unsurprisingly didn't really follow through on actual community engagement. Not his fault either since a lot of these folks are having to do more with less.

Yes, and the way they're doing this practically is by doing basically a funnel system. Discord provides a general-purpose funnel, Social Media provides a general-purpose funnel, and the Player Council also provides a funnel. When things are really a big deal, it makes it through these funnels to the product managers, who raise it at their meetings (both internal and with BHS). Honestly, this system in general is working, but people don't think it is because they're not seeing the sorts of drastic/immediate changes they want.

You're totally right in what you say that EME and BHS are looking very carefully at the metrics and seeing what works and what doesn't -- based on the data, not just what people say. One of the big problems is that a lot of times what people say and what people actually do are not aligned. Trying to reconcile those different angles is the challenge of working in that type of job.

(Take for example the issue with the boat mount that's exclusively bound to doing a lot of high-level dungeon runs. A lot of people really complained bitterly about this (here, on Discord, everywhere), but looking at it now, I see a lot of people trying to do it. Despite endless grumbling, there are people posting every day on Discord that they're run /25 for the weekly target. So what does this tell EME? People complain because they hope EME will nerf it, but in the end the hardcore players will clear the hurdle anyway, increasing all the play metrics they were targeting for the specific player group they were focused on. Result: stay the course. They have to have a BS meter that tells them what complaints are real, critical issues that need to be addressed, and what is just fishing for nerfs that might actually be counterproductive to the metrics.)

@Zoknahal said:
@counterpoint Coincidentally, most of the better feedback, comes from harsh criticism. So i be damn shooting myself in the head, but if no one is gonna tell EME that they are taking things the wrong, way, then who will? All they are telling me with their decision to shift feedback gathering from their official media, to Discord, is that they just do not want to bother reading criticism that may help them in making better choices.

Honestly, people like us who come from the forum generation are biased. We like writing these long replies and having big discussions about opinions and points of view, but for people like the EME production staff who are super-busy and just focused on the day-to-day of keeping TERA running, they don't have time to discuss F2P gaming philosophy with random people. They need feedback that is tactical with a real pulse of what is truly critical. And now that there is no longer a Community Team to do a conversion (they used to put together weekly reports that summarized the key feedback from the forum), even I (coming from a Forum background) have to agree that Discord is much better for the team now. They can go about their day-to-day job and, at any time, get an instant pulse check on what's going on, and then go right back to their work. That's also part of the role Player Council plays for them (getting feedback in real-time about things they're working on as a gut-check -- though that doesn't mean they'll always do what we want/recommend). When you're trying to do "more with less," as LordMurasama said, this streamlining of feedback is critical. Honestly, it's even more full of "harsh criticism" than the forum is/ever was, but it's delivered in a different way -- much more stream-of-consciousness and real-time. I still like forums, but it's pointless to harp on this issue as if this is about "avoiding criticism." It's definitely not, and even if it were, it certainly hasn't been the result.

Aside that... when you dig through all the many layers of your message all you're really saying is: post the list of what is in the lootboxes and what the odds are, so we know what's in it and what our chances are of getting it. And when you boil the argument down to that point, I am 100% in agreement with you. And guess what, probably some EME staff may agree with you too. I just don't know why you think they should have to read a patronizing lecture from you to get to the real point... and that, most likely, they won't bother to read it even if it were presented to them for that reason. If your actual intended audience for this thread were the EME staff who can make a difference in what you're asking for, I think you should start by considering them in the way you write. But it seems pretty clear that they're not actually the real audience here.

TERA PC - General Discussion#7 TJKat09/29/2019, 07:11 PM

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

@TJKat said:

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

When you log back in after nearly two years of inactive lurking just to give a +1 to a comment because it struck such an honest note.

@TJKat said:

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

Honestly, if they had to start over now, there probably wouldn't even be a forum anymore and they'd just direct everyone to Discord instead. Times have changed.

TERA PC - General Discussion#10 RonLaw09/30/2019, 08:08 AM

Discord is just another "Global Chat" like in game same 6-7 people maybe 1 of 2 EME peeps stop in

TERA PC - General Discussion#11 Christin09/30/2019, 10:20 AM

All I know is that the new store is putting a lot of costumes in the broker, and it's really nice to have the variety that is there now.

As far as the rest of it goes, even accessories give coins. I am not the type of player that demands to have the rarest of costumes, so I'm happy for the people that get rare stuff like the ribbons and all. It's fun to play a game when you're not constantly competing with others to have the latest cosmetics. Sometimes, it's nice just to earn what you can and have fun with things.

being able to play video games is a luxury and not a civil right ...GG .

@counterpoint said:

@LordMurasama said:
I mean the new product manager (Frank Johnson aka Tielwing) made that initial post of his here but then unsurprisingly didn't really follow through on actual community engagement. Not his fault either since a lot of these folks are having to do more with less.

Yes, and the way they're doing this practically is by doing basically a funnel system. Discord provides a general-purpose funnel, Social Media provides a general-purpose funnel, Support provides a funnel, and the Player Council also provides a funnel. When things are really a big deal, it makes it through these funnels to the product managers, who raise it at their meetings (both internal and with BHS). Honestly, this system in general is working, but people don't think it is because they're not seeing the sorts of drastic/immediate changes they want.

You're totally right in what you say that EME and BHS are looking very carefully at the metrics and seeing what works and what doesn't -- based on the data, not just what people say. One of the big problems is that a lot of times what people say and what people actually do are not aligned. Trying to reconcile those different angles is the challenge of working in that type of job.

(Take for example the issue with the boat mount that's exclusively bound to doing a lot of high-level dungeon runs. A lot of people really complained bitterly about this (here, on Discord, everywhere), but looking at it now, I see a lot of people trying to do it. Despite endless grumbling, there are people posting every day on Discord that they're run /25 for the weekly target. So what does this tell EME? People complain because they hope EME will nerf it, but in the end the hardcore players will clear the hurdle anyway, increasing all the play metrics they were targeting for the specific player group they were focused on. Result: stay the course. They have to have a BS meter that tells them what complaints are real, critical issues that need to be addressed, and what is just fishing for nerfs that might actually be counterproductive to the metrics.)

So it's just like people like Jim f**king Sterling, son constantly harp on about: we won't see any meaningful change to some of the systems because not enough people care about how detrimental those systems are to the overall health of the game.

Ergo, so long as "whales" are a thing, we may never see a change to things like EME's gods-awful lootbox shenanigans (Aside: I honestly believe that the prices of certain direct-buy items were designed to push more people toward lootboxes than away) nor more reasonable approaches to game mechanics like restructured enchanting and upgrading since there are just enough people proving that the current methods "don't need fixing".

That's just f**king depressing.

@SageWindu said:
So it's just like people like Jim f**king Sterling, son constantly harp on about: we won't see any meaningful change to some of the systems because not enough people care about how detrimental those systems are to the overall health of the game.

Ergo, so long as "whales" are a thing, we may never see a change to things like EME's gods-awful lootbox shenanigans (Aside: I honestly believe that the prices of certain direct-buy items were designed to push more people toward lootboxes than away) nor more reasonable approaches to game mechanics like restructured enchanting and upgrading since there are just enough people proving that the current methods "don't need fixing".

That's just f**king depressing.

This is obviously true at least to a certain degree (why change what works?), but it's not as if that's the one and only factor either.

For example, for gear enchanting/upgrade, the current system was "working" in giving a carrot for the hardcore to constantly chase, but it became increasingly inaccessible to new and casual players. This is something they say the new gear system is trying to address (whether it does it successfully or not is another question -- this is hardly the first time they've tried to solve this problem, usually starting with good intentions and eventually devolving into a giant mess over time).

For lootboxes, as we see, pressure is building from other sources until eventually something is going to give. So even if the industry is not going to willingly choose to give up their most profitable business model, they will probably be forced to moderate it. When they're forced to do it, they can all give that excuse to their bosses/shareholders/etc. about the extra cost and/or lower profits.

But yeah, there's absolutely a disconnect between "things people complain about" and "things people do." Even this Terachic Boutique... people may complain about the odds not being posted (I think they should post the odds) but lots of people have traded in old costumes/accessories to roll on these boxes anyway, and discovered some of these "exclusive" (intentional or not) items along the way. So people can be all fire and fury on the forums yelling about their "incompetence" but people are opening a lot of boxes anyway, so...

TERA PC - General Discussion#15 Christin09/30/2019, 11:01 PM

Believe it or not it seems the ones complaining the most are the ones buying up the loot boxes. They are mad, because they can't simply buy up loot boxes in this case. Instead, this new store makes it tougher to simply throw cash at loot boxes to get what you want. That really seems to be what the problem is about. It's all about entitlements and being mad someone else has something you don't.

Personally, I love the new system, because it's turning soulbound items into tradable items, and those new tradable items end up on the broker. It means the broker is no longer completely dependent on the store offerings, and that is really important. And yes, people are buying costumes off of the broker to dismantle into coins, so yeah, people are getting new costumes using only gold, which is what really makes some mad.

TERA PC - General Discussion#16 Christin09/30/2019, 11:25 PM

@counterpoint said:

@TJKat said:

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

Honestly, if they had to start over now, there probably wouldn't even be a forum anymore and they'd just direct everyone to Discord instead. Times have changed.

The forums comprise the majority of EME's Google presence, so not sure why they'd want to rely on Discord so much. New players are looking to Google to find information and updated guides. EME trying to make the forums obsolete will ensure new players get frustrated with new changes and leave. Now, most new players end up turning to global, because EME's Google presents is already being hindered by Discord. I can only imagine the mess we're going to have to deal with when the new gear gets released. So much of the information will be on Discord, so Global will be flooded with questions like we were and still are about the new partner system. Global should not always be expected to pick up the pieces, because all of the actual EME employees are sitting on Discord.

Plus, if they want us all to use Discord, they need to clean up the total mess they've made of their channel. You can't simply copy forum categories and use them all on a chat program.

@Christin said:

@counterpoint said:

@TJKat said:

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

Honestly, if they had to start over now, there probably wouldn't even be a forum anymore and they'd just direct everyone to Discord instead. Times have changed.

The forums comprise the majority of EME's Google presence, so not sure why they'd want to rely on Discord so much. New players are looking to Google to find information and updated guides.

Well, play guides notwithstanding (that you find more on fansites), they're putting more troubleshooting information (and some simpler guides) in their Knowledgebase now, so that way answers to common Google questions still get found. (For example, they have a guide to the (companion system)[https://support.enmasse.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023616753-TERA-PC-Introduction-to-Companions].) They have someone on staff now whose job (among other things) is maintaining this Knowledgebase for all EME games. Right now they still use the forums for patch notes and some news posts, but I think honestly this is mostly for convenience of editing. This could maybe be moved to the website proper or the Knowledgebase as well. Besides that, even without an official forum, places like Reddit continue to exist.

I'm not saying that they're going to get rid of the forum anytime soon, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually ended up there. A number of newer games simply don't have official publisher forums anymore.

@counterpoint said:

@Christin said:

@counterpoint said:

@TJKat said:

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

Honestly, if they had to start over now, there probably wouldn't even be a forum anymore and they'd just direct everyone to Discord instead. Times have changed.

The forums comprise the majority of EME's Google presence, so not sure why they'd want to rely on Discord so much. New players are looking to Google to find information and updated guides.

Well, play guides notwithstanding (that you find more on fansites), they're putting more troubleshooting information (and some simpler guides) in their Knowledgebase now, so that way answers to common Google questions still get found. (For example, they have a guide to the companion system.) They have someone on staff now whose job (among other things) is maintaining this Knowledgebase for all EME games. Right now they still use the forums for patch notes and some news posts, but I think honestly this is mostly for convenience of editing. This could maybe be moved to the website proper or the Knowledgebase as well. Besides that, even without an official forum, places like Reddit continue to exist.

I'm not saying that they're going to get rid of the forum anytime soon, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually ended up there. A number of newer games simply don't have official publisher forums anymore. Forums (Reddit aside) are becoming relics of the past.

As soon as yourself and @StarSprite stop posting/replying at the forums, might as well close it.

TERA PC - General Discussion#19 Christin10/02/2019, 05:02 AM

@counterpoint said:

@Christin said:

@counterpoint said:

@TJKat said:

@counterpoint said:
it doesn't say much that I'm doing better than a team that no longer exists.

On the contrary. I think it says a lot that they no longer have a community team, and have dumped all that on a volunteer.

Honestly, if they had to start over now, there probably wouldn't even be a forum anymore and they'd just direct everyone to Discord instead. Times have changed.

The forums comprise the majority of EME's Google presence, so not sure why they'd want to rely on Discord so much. New players are looking to Google to find information and updated guides.

Well, play guides notwithstanding (that you find more on fansites), they're putting more troubleshooting information (and some simpler guides) in their Knowledgebase now, so that way answers to common Google questions still get found. (For example, they have a guide to the companion system.) They have someone on staff now whose job (among other things) is maintaining this Knowledgebase for all EME games. Right now they still use the forums for patch notes and some news posts, but I think honestly this is mostly for convenience of editing. This could maybe be moved to the website proper or the Knowledgebase as well. Besides that, even without an official forum, places like Reddit continue to exist.

I'm not saying that they're going to get rid of the forum anytime soon, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually ended up there. A number of newer games simply don't have official publisher forums anymore. Forums (Reddit aside) are becoming relics of the past.

Who moderates reddit forums? Just wondering. Personally, I'm fine with moving to reddit but will post here for as long as I can.

@Christin said:
Who moderates reddit forums? Just wondering. Personally, I'm fine with moving to reddit but will post here for as long as I can.

There's a moderators section in the sidebar of the subreddit; basically, it's volunteers that have no association with any of the companies involved. (Then again, if that were the decision, it's possible that companies could create their own subreddit so they had some control over the moderation; EME did that once in the past too.) In any case, it's all hypothetical; for now I've not heard of any plans to change the status quo.

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